105. Differentiation Strategies for Independent Schools with Chuck English

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Tara: Welcome to Mindful School Marketing. I’m Tara Clay. 

Aubrey: And I’m Aubrey Burch. Today we’re joined by Chuck English. Chuck Partners with independent schools to achieve enrollment and other strategic goals by developing powerful messaging and marketing initiatives. Through his firm English Marketing Works, he has successfully worked with dozens of schools in the United States and Canada.

Chuck is an accomplished speaker delivering presentations at numerous national and regional conferences, and is the author of numerous eBooks on school marketing. We’re so delighted to have you, Chuck here with us today. Welcome. 

Chuck: Thank you so much. It’s great to be here 

Tara: and it’s great to have you. Nice to see you.

It was great to see you in person. And now virtually here today, so there you go. Yeah. Um, you recently spoke at. Um, at the Small School Leaders Conference that Aubrey ran about market differentiation, so that’s what we wanna talk to you about today. How would you define differentiation for independent schools and why is this becoming a crucial strategy in the competitive landscape for schools?

Chuck: Um, I, I think that I would. How would I define differentiation? I, I, I guess differentiation is setting yourself apart from competition making it clear why parents might want to choose your school over other schools in a particular market. Why is it so important? I think that as. The school landscape becomes more and more competitive, both with, um, both with independent schools, but obviously still with public schools, but all the other options as well, right?

Like charter schools and, um, micro schools now are, are like a big deal and, um, certainly, um. All the magnet schools that, that are available. Um, and, you know, there’s data that’s available. I, I think I used some data in that presentation that showed that all of those options are increasing, um, actually as public school enrollment decreases.

So it’s really, you know, it, it, the marketplace and it, you know, gets more and more cluttered. Um, and, um. Homeschooling by the way, that that was another option. And people are, lots of people are doing that. So I, I think that it’s, it’s really important for schools to be able to set themselves apart and to allow parents to be able to understand what makes one school different from another.

Aubrey: This is like a really juicy topic. I’m like excited to talk about this. I mean, I heard your presentation before, but I could talk to you about this for hours. So. Yes. As you mentioned, there are so many different options out there for parents. So how do you stand out? How do you differentiate yourself in the market?

And one of the things I, I’d love to hear like your thoughts on is like, you know, we have, there’s obviously an importance of parents. I. Understanding what value a school has to offer, right? But how can schools better understand and communicate these things to parents, um, to strengthen their position in the market and to stand out and differentiate themselves?

I think this is a huge factor As we’re moving forward, I.

Chuck: I think that f first of all, I think I, I would answer that in two ways. One is that I, you, you know, I, I, I think that schools need to kind of dig deep when it comes to some of this and to really think about what makes them. What they are, who they are, what the essence of the school is, um, and, and, um, you know, how that might be different than the school down the road.

But the other thing, and this was something that, um, I talked about in that presentation and that I still think about a lot, which is that, um, and, and it was based on something that I, that I had read, and it just, it, it’s so powerful, which is that. You know, the, the, the point of marketing a school is not, um, just to sort of be a, a kind of bullhorn and tell everybody in the world about what it is that, um, you have to offer, but rather it’s to find the parents who already value what it is.

Um, that you are offering. And that’s such a powerful concept. I mean, be because it still means you need to understand yourself as a school, but it also means that, that now your, your, um, marketing your, your, your marketing tactics, your marketing strategy really is geared at, is geared at finding those parents who value what it is that differentiates you.

And and I, I, I think that’s a really different way of looking at things. A very powerful way of looking at things. I think it happens to be very true. And the other, I mean, the other thing that goes along with that, by the way, is that, you know, at the same time is your differentiating your school.

Parents are trying to diff make, differentiate as well. They’re trying to make choices. So what you really want is to find that sweet spot where it all kind of matches up.

Tara: I mean, I think that makes a lot of sense. It’s easy to say, maybe not as easy to do. Right? So, um, you know, what kind of strategic planning can be done to, to, to accomplish that, that search, to find, to find those matches. 

Chuck: Well, I mean, I think the first thing is that, you know, as I said before, I think that schools need to understand the themselves, you know, really really well.

Um, and y you know, probably the, the, the biggest you know, the most powerful exercise in terms of doing that is, um, you know, the idea of finding schools, finding their, their big why. You know, and that relates. To the Simon Sinek video that the Ted Talk that, you know, I’m sure we’re all really familiar with.

Um, but you know, it’s, it’s, it’s a powerful question for a school to ask themselves. Why do they exist? You know, why are we here? What do, what do we do to serve our community that only we can do? Um, and, and, you know, I, I think that’s, that, that’s a, that’s a really powerful question because, so oftentimes schools get lost in, you know, talking about their programs and their resources and their accomplishments and all of those things.

But, you know, don’t, don’t. You know, don’t think about that, that kind of, that big why question. Um, and, and then it’s a matter of then, then I think it’s a matter of being able to. Being able to sort of match up with what parents are, are looking for. What is it that parents are, what, what, what do parents in your catchment area, what are they looking for?

And how does, how, how do your differentiating qualities match up with those parents? And how can you allow, you know, how can you differentiate in a way that allows the parents who do, um, value what you have to offer? Find you. Is that complicated? Is that, 

Aubrey: oh, that makes perfect sense. I mean, it’s, it’s like those are the higher level steps and then it’s actually executing them in a school.

I’m curious, like have you sc, do you have an example of a school that, that figured this out? Like that they were like, okay, we’re gonna like survey our internal parents and then we’re gonna look at what the market has to offer and see like, what, what is it, what is it that we specifically do? That differentiates us from other schools in the market, and we have that, that niche and that we’re, we’re drawing in these parents that are aligned.

And then like what, what did they find successful in that? Like where, could you give us an example? 

Chuck: Um,

1. Well, here, here I can give you an interesting example. It may not be exactly what you’re asking for, but here, here you know, here, here’s a, you know, here’s a, a, a, a, what I think is a really great example. Um, so I did some work, um, this was a few years ago. I did some work from a, for school and, um. The, the, you know, word I, I guess the word on the street about this school was all about its, you know, academic excellence.

You know, everybody said, oh, this is, this, this school is, is, you know, is, is, you know, really, you know, really, really great when it, when it comes to that. And so, y you know, I did. The normal kind of work that I usually do with schools, you know, focus groups with various stakeholders and interviews with various people.

And, um, I, I discovered that, um, in fact, that wasn’t so well established. In fact, it, it wasn’t. It wasn’t well established at all with within the school, even though the, that was their reputation, um, when it actually came to proving that, um, they, they, they were really quite weak at that. So, so, you know, in terms of this idea of differentiation, um, you know, they really, we, we really did, we really needed to do, um, some work in terms of differentiating the school academically and showcasing the ways in which.

Um, they are, they, they, they had academic superiority. So it, you know, sometimes when you go through the process, you find. That, that what people think about a school isn’t really, you know, that doesn’t really bear, bear fruit, doesn’t really bear out. And, and, um, and that, you know, that then requires all kinds of other things.

And, and in the end, you know, we did, you know, we did all kinds of things there. Like we did a, um, a little micro site on, um, various academic projects that people could go to so that, you know, people could. You know, talk about or rather see, you know, the ways in which the school’s academically superior, you know, various other things online and in print and things like that.

But, you know, I mean, that, that, I thought that was an interesting example. I. 

Tara: Yeah, that is a good example. And I’d like the, as a website person, you know, creating a special website that talks about those things, um, is a really neat idea. Um, or at least a page on your site that Yeah. That you can, um, that you can use and use in advertising and those types of things to, to really kind of, um, emphasize.

What, what makes you different? Um, it was, 

Chuck: it was actually neat. It was called we, we, sorry, I, we’ll just, you know. Yeah. It was called Limitless Possibilities. And we did that and we showcased four academic projects. And because we were doing it online, you know, you were able to you know, include video and, you know, other resources and PDFs and all kinds of things with it.

So, you know, parents looking at this could get a really robust kind of look at what. You know, what was really going on academically, so it was neat. 

Tara: Yeah. Cool. I’m gonna pivot and ask, um, in your in the presentation that you did for the conference, um, the jobs to be done framework could you talk a little bit about that and um, and what that is and how schools can apply this to better understand what parents are seeking for their children’s education?

Chuck: Sure. So the, I I, I’m, the jobs to be done framework that, you know, that that way of looking at the world was originally developed by, um, clay Christiansen, who was a professor. He, unfortunately, I think he is, I. He has since passed away, but he’s a, I was a professor at, um, Harvard, and he developed this for business and it was a way for businesses to be able to think about, um, how they could meet the needs of their customers by thinking about the jobs that customers want their bus, these businesses to do.

Um, and um, so, and then what happened was that NIS. Adapted that to schools. Um, and they came up with four, you know, the, the four jobs, um, that they said that schools can do in order to meet the needs of parents. And it was based on, I mean, that was based on a, a, a, a fair bit of research that they did.

They did a whole bunch of interviews about that and, and I’m, I’m I don’t have my presentation in front of me, but, but, but you, you know, there were things like. Um, helping a child with particular needs helping children find a values-based, you know, learning environment. I mean those, those kinds of things.

The interesting thing is that I. You know, if you really look into the jobs to be done kind of rubric, there are, um, the, there are people that have written about other kinds of jobs to be done and that, that really and I didn’t, I didn’t talk about this in my presentation. I could, I, I suppose I could have, but, but the, the, the reality is that schools don’t have to limit their jobs to be done analysis to just the four NIS.

Jobs to be done. Because it, you know, it kind of makes sense that in different, you know, in different markets, in different communities, um, parents might be looking for schools to do different jobs. But, but, but, but looking at it from the perspective of. What the school is offering a parent, what the school, um, you know, can do for a parent.

You know, I think it’s very powerful because it, it, it helps you think about what it is that, um, it helps you think about what it is that parents. Are looking for and, and going back to that idea that, you know, that I began with, which is this idea of finding the parents who value what you’re looking for.

You know, by, by, by knowing what parents want, you can now, you know, you can differentiate your school in a way that’s more meaningful. I. 

Tara: Thank you. Yeah, that’s, I, I love that concept. I wasn’t familiar with that framework before you talked about it. Um, and so I was excited to, to have you share that information today.

Um, you. Aubrey, did you have another question? Sorry. 

Aubrey: Oh yeah, no, sorry about that. I’m just curious, like, so as we’re talking about the jobs to be done, and I, I really was intrigued by the way you framed that, just there, um. And we’re thinking about differentiation and everything like that. I’m curious, like where do, like, how do we apply these things to the different jobs that schools need to execute to get, like, get more students in the door and you know, increase their fundraising?

Like how can differentiation and the topics that we discussed prior, improve, like not just enrollment, but fundraising, staff recruitment and retention. I mean, there are just so many different areas that could be impacted by, by the things you’ve mentioned, and I’m just curious how you’ve seen that impact.

Chuck: I mean, I, at the end of the day, I think it’s in, I. You know how you take all, all of what we’re talking about. So take taking you know, what you, what you think or what you know, makes your school unique and you know, how that meets up with what parents are looking for and translating that all into effective messaging and, and being able to tell people.

You know, exactly those things, but in ways that are, you know, relevant and resonate with parents and, um, you know, are, are are developed in ways that, you know, speak, speak to parents’ needs or to donor’s needs. You know, you’re, and, and Aubrey, I think you’re, you know, a hundred percent right, which is that, you know, this is all stuff that, um, is as important to fundraising as it is.

To, um, to recruitment. And the other thing I would say is that, you know, it’s as important to retention as it is to recruitment because you, you, you know, in, in in, in, in a, in another presentation that I’ve done, you know, I, I, I, I I told the story of a fifth grade parent that once, you know, came to visit me when I was working in a school and I, you know, had all this marketing material kind of laid out on the table that I was working on.

And she walked in and she said, oh, that’s so interesting. You, you know, I, I don’t, I don’t really remember why I. Chose the school and I thought, oh, this is not good. Like, this is really, really not good. Um, because, you know, your current parents are o obviously the source of word of mouth. They’re out talking to prospective parents, and if they don’t know why they chose the school, they can’t tell somebody why they chose the school, then that’s then obviously that’s, that’s a problem.

And so. I guess the point is that you need to differentiate to current parents as much as you do to prospective parents because you need them to be, to understand what makes. That school, your school different, um, you know, in the community. And, and like I said, to be able to communicate that to, to other people.

So, um, it, it, it differentiation has applications to, to all kinds of things. And, and you know, I think you mentioned, um, you know, you mentioned recruiting faculty and, and look, these days, that’s a huge issue, right? I mean the, you know, if you read. All the, you know, if you read so much of what you’re reading, um, it, it’s, it’s difficult.

It’s expensive. I just saw, I just saw a, a I just read a blog post that said it’s costing $15,000 to recruit. Um, and this was for a public school board, but, but $15,000 to risk. To recruit each individual faculty member. So, you know, differentiation makes, I think it makes a big difference there. A because, um, you, you wanna make sure that the teachers that you’re hiring, um, you, you know, match up with your values and what makes your school unique in order for them to be successful.

Um, and then the other thing is, is I think that if you are well differentiated as a school, if, if a. Prospective faculty member can look at your website or, you know, whatever your social media profiles and be able to understand what makes your school unique. I think that makes you more attractive, um, as a school.

So there’s, there’s lots of different applications. Differentiation. 

Tara: Yeah. I wanna talk about competition because differentiation means how you’re different from. Everybody else. So what process do you recommend for schools to realistically assess their competition and discover their unique points of difference in comparison?

Chuck: I think the, the the first step that I would recommend is to be honest, um, to be I would say to be brutally honest. I mean, there are going to, there are things, um, there are things that other schools do better than your school. Um, there’s no question about that. And, um, you have to be willing to recognize that, and you have to be willing to take that into consideration.

Um, so I, I, you know, I, I, I think that, um, being honest and open about it is, is really important. And if you can’t if you can’t do that yourself, which is entirely possible, it’s hard to do, then you need to talk to people, you know, and that, and that could be. That could, that could be parents.

Parents, you know, might have a good grip on on what the word on the street is about your school. So you, I mean, you need to prepared to listen to them, but I mean, you might wanna talk to parents. Um, you might wanna look at o obviously, um, you, you know, various school review sites and parent Facebook pages and or, or social media.

You know, pro profiles for parents, you know, all these parents groups, whatever. Um, there’s lots of ways of doing that, but I think it starts with that. I think it starts with, um, a kind of understanding of what. You do best and what other schools do best? Um, I actually did this in this presentation, so it’s like this triple Venn diagram.

So the idea is that if you know what you do best and you know what, then you know what? Other schools do best and you know what parents are looking for, then what you, what, what you really wanna try and find is what you do best. That isn’t what the other schools do best. And that is what parents look for.

Um, and if you can do that, you know, you can, you can, you can find that, that. You know, that bit of differentiation. Um, but like I said, I, I, I think it starts with, you know, an a really eyes wide open view of the marketplace and, and, and, um, you know, sometimes that can be difficult, but it, it, if you can’t do that, then it’s gonna be really hard.

Aubrey: That’s so, and I love that, that kind of, um. This, this conversation here, because as school leaders sometimes we’re like, oh yeah, we’re like the best at this in the marketplace. But when you pull the data, whether you’re looking at like why people aren’t attending their school or you’re surveying new parents about like, which schools they were in contend like were contenders in their search.

Um, and you’re pulling that data and then you’re doing that honest look like you were talking about like honest. Let’s be honest, you know. They’re kind of finding out like maybe, maybe they’re not the best at, at that thing. Um, and also, um, there’s this kind of, um, expectation that we need to compete on every level with the school down the street.

And that expectation is, you know, not a, not a good one, especially if you have different budgets. And certainly if your market is crowded, that’s, that’s not gonna help you stand out. I know we worked with a school where they had no athletic, like they realized they couldn’t compete on athletics. Like the, the schools down the street had all the programs, all the things.

So they leaned into a completely different direction and away from athletics and into more nature-based and other programs. And that was their niche. Right. Um, and like finding that I think is super important. So I’m so glad you brought that up. Um, now I’m curious like. As schools are in this process of differentiation, like where are are some common pitfalls you see?

Like where do, do schools kind of, maybe they start the process, but then like, they’re like, oh, and, and they make some, some common mistake that like maybe if, if they, they knew ahead of time about this mistake, they’d be more careful going into it. 

Chuck: I, I, I think the biggest one probably relates to something you just said, Aubrey, which is that, you know, there is this natural kind of tendency to, to want to be like other schools, right?

And if, you know, if you hear about a school, um, you know, if you hear about, about, you know, if you heard a school, you know, the next county over that is. Yeah. Um, you know, that’s attracting all kinds of kids because of their I don’t know, you know, be, be because of their technology program. Um, you know, the, I think the inclination is to say, well, we have a technology program and you know, ours is, ours is, might be just as good.

And, you know, we, you know, we, we, we can do that and, and. Maybe the answer is no. You can’t, you know, you, you, you don’t have that, and you can’t be everything to everybody. Um, and you know, you really have to, I, I think you really have to sort of come to grips with that. You have to come to grips with the fact that you can’t, you know, you, you can’t be everything to everybody.

And, um, and, and I think that’s, that’s really the biggest pitfall is that, is that. Schools aren’t always willing to be that honest. And I mean, and look at the, you know, and to be fair to be about this, that you, you know, sometimes it’s really easy, um, or it seems really easy for people like us who go into schools, right?

Um, because, you know, we have this great benefit of being able to see things from the outside. Right. And, but when you’re on the inside all the time, it’s a lot, you know, it’s a lot harder to see, you know, we always I always talk, I’m sure you do, both of you do too. Talk about you know, being able to see the world from a, from an outside in point of view, not an inside out point of view.

Right. You need, you need to be able to. See things the way, you know, your prospective parents see things, and that that can be a really, really difficult thing to do. So, you know, I, I, I think I, I, I, I, I think, um, being prepared to be different, um, is, is is, is, is a huge pitfall. It’s a huge place where people get stuck.

Tara: Thank you. Yes, for sure. I find that often too, when we’re trying to do messaging for a website, trying, you know, to put too many things there. We used to, websites used to have sliders at the top, which nobody watches by the way. So, but everybody would want their message at the top. They would want, you know.

You’d wanna have a message about, you know, your great faculty, about your small class size, about making a donation about your strong STEM program. Everybody wanted their message at the top, and you’d put it in a slider and nobody would see it. And you have to kind of say, you know, you have to have one message.

You have to have one primary focus of what makes you special. So I really appreciate you putting that out as a mistake because I, I, um, deal with that a lot in marketing. Um, and, and website development. Um, let’s talk about, you know, kind of keeping the momentum up with this type of thing. So how do you, how can schools ensure that their differentiation, strategy.

Stays authentic and adaptable as trends and market conditions evolve, you know, as what’s, what parents are looking for may change, um, you know, getting to that point of wanting to be all things for all people. How, you know, how do you kind of sustain that motivation to, to focus on that, on your differentiation?

Chuck: Well, sustaining motivation is a whole different issue, by the way. I mean, that’s definitely right. I mean, the, the mo the motivation ought to come from just wanting your school to be successful. But, um, you know, I think, I think that it is a matter of not growing complacent of, um, and, and.

Continuously or, or continually being honest, right? Is is that you, you, you know, you have to, you know, you, you have to be willing to listen to what the market is telling you. And, um, you know, if, if perceptions about your school are shifting, um, then, you know, you, you, you know, you have to be prepared to listen to that.

And, you know, look at the, the other thing is this I, I, I, I think that this is. This is not just, um. DI differentiation is not just something for, um, admissions and enrollment and marketing and communications people to be involved in. You know, differentiation is something that that’s that educational leaders have to be involved in.

All the school leadership has to be involved in this. Because what you, you know, what you, you might find is, and this is something I just, you know, wrote a blog post about, but you, you might find that you, you end up with, um, you know what I call the, a, a reputation gap. You might end up with a, you might end up in a situation where.

Um, where, where you know, what you, what you want your reputation to be in the marketplace is not the way you’re being perceived. And so, um, and, and, and I think that relates a lot to differentiation, right? So the, the way in which you want, you know, to translate that the way in which you wanna be differentiated may not be in fact the way that you are.

And, and, and so the, you know, there are two possibilities there. I mean, one is a. One is a messaging fix. It could be that you’re just not you, you’re just not effectively messaging what it is that makes your, makes your school different or what makes your school unique. Um, but it could also be that the, the messaging’s in place, but the program is not.

Is not being delivered. That, that in fact, um, you know, what, what you want, what you want to be able to say differentiates your school is, is not is not really happening. And so, you know that that could mean like a really difficult conversation with. You know, head, a head of school or, um, administrators to say, Hey, you know, we’re, we’re, we’re saying that this is what differentiates us in the marketplace, but people are also telling us that, you know, the, the program doesn’t, doesn’t, doesn’t live up to that.

You know, what, what, you know, we, we need to do something about that. Either. Either you need to, either you need to. Change and say, okay, maybe that’s not, maybe that’s not what differentiates us. Or if you want to double down on that, then you gotta make sure that, that the program, you know, speaks to that. So it, it can, I mean, it can lead to some, um.

Difficult, but I think it ultimately very productive conversations in a school. But, um, you know, it does highlight the fact that differentiation is, is a holistic kind of activity, I think. 

Aubrey: Absolutely. Um, I mean, I’ve seen that so many times where the schools really want this one thing to be their, their factor, but actually what they say they’re good at is not something they’re good at.

Right? And they have to have those difficult conversation and they have to be mindful about, you know, how to proceed. Which leads me straight into our next question. So through the lens of our podcast, we talk about mindfulness. And how it applies to schools and marketing. How do you see mindfulness lived out in your work with independent schools?

Chuck: So I think we, you know, look it, I, I, I, I, I think we’ve just talked about it, right? I mean, you know, this is, um, and, and you, you know, you had said that you might ask this question and I thought about it and, and, and the answer was almost exactly the kind of thing we just talked about. If mindfulness is about, um, you know, living in the present.

Right. You know, being, being present, being aware, um, then, you know, mindfulness is, is being, you know, being, living in the present in terms of your school, not living in terms of what you want it to be. Not living in terms of, you know, look at schools, might have a, um, and heads of school might have great visions for the future, which is great and it’s powerful and it’s a rallying point for schools and, you know, all of those things.

But. You, you know, the future may not have been realized yet. And, and, and being mindful is saying, no, we’re, you know, we’re not there yet and we’re on our way. And maybe the, maybe the differentiating messaging needs to talk about that, that this is the direction that we’re moving in and this is, this is our, this is how we’re gonna get there, and this is our goal, and all those kinds of things.

But, you know, I, I, I think. That, um, being mindful is being realistic about where your school is today, um, as it relates to other schools, um, in your community and your marketplace and, and. You know, dealing with that head on, dealing with what that means, and, you know, whether that’s a messaging challenge, whether that’s a programmatic challenge with, it’s a combination of the two.

But I, I, I think that that’s that, that’s being, you know, really mindful and, you know, we can extend it to other things like, you know, in terms of resources, you know, mindful in terms of you, you know, being honest about the kinds of resources that you have available to you and what you’re really able to do.

And, you know, I think that’s. That’s a kind of mindfulness too. Um, I don’t know. I mean that, you know, it’s always been an interesting name for, you know, for a podcast. So I dunno whether that, that, I don’t know whether that conforms to 

Tara: works, that works. What, what you think 

Chuck: being mindful is when it comes to school marketing.

But that’s that that’s what I think about. 

Tara: That’s, that’s, that’s one of the points of it for sure. Yeah. And I really appreciate how often you’ve said honesty. ’cause I think that, that, that’s a big part of mindfulness, but it’s also for me, a really important part of marketing. So, um, they go together. So thank you for that.

We are gonna hop into our rapid fire questions. 

Chuck: Oh no. 

Tara: The first one is if, oh no, you could put, if you could put one book as mandatory reading on the high school curriculum, what would it be? 

Chuck: Um, I. How about Fahrenheit 4 51? Do you know that book? Oh, I do. Um, I, I think that that’s a, I think that’s a really interesting book for today.

Aubrey: All right. Thank you. Thank you, Chuck. So excited. We’ll add it to our Good reads list. 

Chuck: You should. I, it’s, it’s, it’s, you know, don’t you think it’s timely for, you know, in terms of. The kinds of issues we’re talking about these days. 

Tara: Yeah. Too much dystopian fiction. Yes. 

Chuck: And also, you know, the idea of being able to tolerate, you know, differing views and to Yeah.

Live in a world where everybody doesn’t think the same anyway. 

Aubrey: Yeah. Very timely. Very timely. For sure. So we’ll add it to our good views list, so please check that out. Okay. Um, what is one app you could live without? 

Chuck: That I could live without or could not make. It could not, 

Aubrey: you couldn’t live without this app

Chuck: these days. Um, I hate to say this, but it’s getting to be Grammarly. I. 

Tara: That’s a good one. You know, it’s kind 

Chuck: of, it, it, I think it, you know, there’s part of me that says that that’s really lame in terms of admitting that, but, but, but, um, but it, it, it’s getting to be grammarly. I mean, you could talk about all the social media apps and things like that, but I mean, you know, I, I, we, I just use it all the time.

Tara: Yeah, that’s a great tool. That’s really, really great. Okay, the next question is also a book question. What are you reading right now? 

Chuck: I’m reading a bunch of, you know, but I’m reading this interesting book called, it’s, it’s, it’s an older book. It’s called, um, service Fanatics. Um, it was written by a guy named, I think his first name is Dan Merlino, um, from the Cleveland Institute.

Um, and Cleveland Clinic, sorry, Cleveland Clinic, and he talked about, um, it’s really his. Journey with the hospital in terms of making them more customer focused. Um, and, and I think it’s, I, I, you know, I’ve been going through it and highlighting things and bookmarking things, and I’m out there, there’s a blog post in there or something in there for sure.

But I, I, I just, I, I, I find it really interesting because I think that the, um, I I, I, I just said this in, in an exchange about. On LinkedIn. That, that I think that the, you, the medical the medical field, the medical profession has some interesting parallels, I think to, to schools because I, I think so often I.

Well, less often these days, but too often schools think that by offering cust good customer service or, or, or a, um, or thinking about their parent experience, that they’re, that, that, that necessarily goes hand in hand with, with the, the customer is always right, that it goes hand in hand with. Parents then dictating what is going to be taught in a classroom and how it’s going to be taught, and you know, what the educational policy at a school is.

And I don’t, I don’t, I don’t think that that’s what parents expect when they expect good a good experience and good service. Um, and in the same way that I think that, you know, patients in a hospital. Don’t equate, you know, a good patient experience, a customer experience with the with, with having the ability to, to second guess a doctor and to say to a doctor, no, no, no, I, you know, I, I disagree with that.

Or This is the way you ought to do your job. I don’t think people want to do that, but I think people still want to. You know, be taken care of. And so this book really talks about that. And I, and, and I thought it, it’s really, it’s, it’s, it’s really interesting. And then the other, the other parallel is, is that, you know, oftentimes in a hospital environment, as in a school environment is that the customer isn’t always the one receiving the service, right?

So, you know, you could have a, you know, a child who’s a patient in a hospital. The parent is paying for that. Um, so the parent’s, the customer, even though somebody else is receiving the service, and that’s obviously very true of schools as well. So anyway it’s, it’s, it’s a, it’s an interesting book. I would, I would I would recommend it.

Aubrey: I’m definitely reading that. I love looking at other industries. Yeah. And then like I, I would be this doing the same thing Chuck highlighting and being like, oh, this is interesting. How is this, you know, parallel to independent schools and, and I did read your LinkedIn post, so if you don’t follow Chuck on LinkedIn, definitely follow him.

That was a great post. Very, that was a, 

Chuck: I mean, and that was so by the way, just as an aside, to me, that was so unbelievable. So I, you know, I mean, just, just to, to tell you or tell people or whoever, whatever. I wrote, you know, I wrote this, the, this post on LinkedIn about customers as sorry, parent as customers.

’cause somebody had posted something that was, was, um, dismissive of that. And I, I said, I thought we got past that already and that. Post on LinkedIn got almost 4,000 interactions. Wow. I mean, and, and to me that was just startling that, that this is still the topic of conversation that it is. So, yeah. I mean.

But yeah, I, and just going back to the, the, the, the service fanatics book, I mean, the other thing you talked about, you know, other, um, industries, you know, other businesses, but some of them are such like a natural, you know, the, what’s, what’s the, there’s the, the, the Disney book, you know the book about Disney and there’s the book, um, the red Carpet, something, something that talks about the hospitality industry.

So those are all naturals, right? But the idea of the medical profession to me was just really fascinating. So. Anyway. 

Aubrey: Yeah. Excited to dive into that one, Chuck. Thanks for sharing. Um, last rapid fire question, what is one great piece of advice you’d like to leave us with?

Chuck: So, I, I, I think it would be, I. YY you know, a a baseball manager named Leo Derocher. Um, well once said, and, and you’ll, you’ll recognize the quote, which is that nice guys finish last. Right. And he said that in I had to look it up again, but it was in, in, in the, in the, in, I think it was in the 1950s.

He was talking about a particular baseball team. Um, but, um, I think that my piece of advice is to, um, is to know that that’s not true. And that, you know, I’m, I’m a thank you. Um, I’m a big believer in the fact that nice guys do not finish last, and that, um, you know, you can conduct yourself in business in a you know, in an honorable courteous, considerate, um, you know.

Perspective, um, and, you know, look after people and, you know, be kind to people and all those kinds of things and still be successful at what you do. You know, you may not be a billionaire, but you can still be, you can still be, um, you can still be very successful at what you do. So, um, that, that’s my advice.

My advice is that, is that, you know, good guys, no, nice guys, don’t finish last. 

Tara: Thank you. I was gonna have to push back if that was gonna be your advice. 

Aubrey: I love that. That’s so, I love it. Authentic and kindness. I feel like authenticity and kindness is beautiful and it’s absolutely true. Thanks, Chuck. That was a great piece of advice to end this episode on.

Tara: Yes, thank you. 

Chuck: My pleasure. 

Tara: Where can people find you online, obviously LinkedIn. 

Chuck: LinkedIn and English Marketing works.com. 

Tara: All right. Well, thank you for joining us and keep out a good work. Yay, Chuck, thank you again. This has been a 

Aubrey: great conversation 

Chuck: and thanks to both of you for doing this. Like, I mean, I always, you know, I always, you know, almost always listen to these podcasts and there’s always something, um, something worth listening to, something to value.

So, I mean, you know, you don’t get paid a million dollars to do this. So, so it’s just really a service to the industry and, um. Thank you for doing that. It’s great. Thank 

Tara: you. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Have a great day. 

Chuck: Yay. You too. 

Tara: Bye.