80. UnMarketing Schools and Listening To Faculty with Terry Dubow

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Tara: Welcome to Mindful School Marketing. I’m Tara Claes. 

Aubrey: And I am Aubrey Burch. Today we’re joined by Terry Dubow. Terry serves as Director of Communications and Story at Marin Montessori School in California. He has worked at various independent schools around the country from Ohio to New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, and now California.

He earned a Bachelor’s Degree in English at Skidmore College and his Master’s in Journalism at The Ohio State University. A middle and high school English teacher for more than 20 years, Aubrey Burch. He also served in various administrative roles from the director of communications at Hathaway Brown to the associate head of school at Westtown.

His most recent work focused on helping launch the mastery transcript consortium and the mastery school of Hawken. Welcome Terry. We’re so excited. You’re here on the podcast. Thanks so much for joining 

Terry: us. Yeah, thrilled to be here. It’s a lot of fun. Yeah, 

Tara: it’s great to have you join us. Um, we, uh, came across a blog post that you wrote with Brendan Schneider, um, and we’ll talk about that in a few minutes.

But, um, first of all, I also love your title, the Director of Communication. Yeah, we took some time figuring that one out. So yeah, great, great, great title. Love it. Um, but before we dive in, can you just tell us a little bit more than about yourself that you’d like to share? Maybe that wasn’t in your formal bio?

Terry: Sure. I mean, I think the, You know, I’ve had a very interesting, circuitous route to whatever I’m doing at Montessori right now. I’m an English teacher. You know, I started working in junior highs in Pennsylvania. In fact, you probably know Rob Norman from Turnaround. Robin Liza’s daughter and son were some of my first students at Newtown Friends School in Pennsylvania.

So I’ve known that family forever. I house sat for them during spring break as a 23 year old. Uh, so I’ve known, so I’ve just been around schools for a long time. I taught middle school and high school English writing. I ran a writing center. So I just of the faculty. Um, and then I found my way. Um, I was at Hathaway Brown, which is a school that is still very, dear to my heart.

Um, And I got very close with the head of school, Bill Christ, and he took a shot at me and I said I wanted to try something more administrative because I was kind of, I’ve been around schools for long enough. And he let me be the director of communications without a lot of like direct training and how to do it.

And I, I’ve sort of fumbled my way through it and then sort of found my way. Um, so I come from faculty, but then I moved through, um, communications. But also through strategic work. So I was the director of strategic projects and things like that at schools. Um, so I, and I think maybe in my, uh, sort of strange the path I have a, you know, kind of distinct view of schools and perspective.

Aubrey: That’s really cool that you’ve had all those roles and kind of can see the different perspectives and the different ways people work within schools. Yeah, 

Terry: it makes it hard for a resume though. Like people like, what is he? And like, uh, what does he do? I don’t think I can’t, like a lot of jobs have like closed off for me because my resume doesn’t make it just not clear enough.

So it goes. 

Aubrey: Well, yeah, so there must be pluses and minuses, but from like, I think it’s a really interesting perspective you have and especially it came through when, um, you know, when we read on marketing schools, which is the blog post that you wrote on Brendan Schneider’s blog. Um, I think it was really interesting the things that you discussed about there where you talked about school marketing.

School marketers, faculty, storytelling, and so much more. Um, I’d love for you to share with our audience a little bit more about, you know, what that article covered and why it came to be like from your experience in 

Terry: schools. Yeah. So I, yeah, thanks for reading it. And, uh, you never know when you throw things out, uh, at the internet.

Um, but, uh, so, you know, I just observed, um, in being in this, uh, business for a bit, like that. Um, a lot of there’s there are a lot of websites and market market shares that I really admire. Right. And I have two kids that went through the college process and I love their, you know, all those things. I’m, I’m big fan of it.

I’m not a critic at all. I, I love it. Um, but one thing I noticed is that, um, You know, a lot of schools highlight really exciting things about their program that anybody would want in their right mind. And, um, that’s great. But my hunch is that what I’ve noticed is that it also doesn’t necessarily move people who are aren’t necessarily in the marketplace or aren’t sure they want to join.

And we have a shrinking demographic of people can afford these schools. And so if you’re only marketing people who are like really deciding between one school’s climbing wall and another school’s climbing wall, then, you know, like, great, but like, most people aren’t that most people have to be persuaded that this is a valuable investment.

And not just for the sort of typical ROI, like getting to Stanford or something like that, but like, it is actually going to do something. So, you know, Um, I sort of I think a lot about audience. Um, and one of the guy notices that most schools when they talk about themselves, they talk about themselves. Um, and what I encourage people is to stop talking about yourself, talk about your parents, talk about the kids, and not just how cool they are and interesting there but like, What are their needs?

Um, I think some of my advantage, despite my strange, um, and unusual path is that I, you know, one of the classes I’ve taught for 20 years is a class called media literacy, which unpacks the role of popular culture and news on our society. And, um, not always a happy story, but anyway, I, I encountered. A guy named Edward Bernays when I was teaching that class, and he’s not a he’s not a hero at all.

He was the nephew of Sigmund Freud, and he took some of his uncle’s insights into human psychology and applied it to consumerism. And so a lot of what we get now is all originated from him and so what did he exploited people’s emotions, their latent unspoken feelings and fears and anxieties, and he got us to buy stuff we didn’t need.

Um, and he got us to change our attitudes and our values and all kinds of things. Um, it’s a long game, but he did a good job in a terrible, terrible way. I take that insight and just try to think about how, um, what are the anxieties and aspirations parents have around schools, around their children, about raising kids today, and think of first about like what, What would drive someone to make a choice?

Um, and then think about our programs and how those programs can respond to those anxieties and aspirations. So that’s a long way of saying that’s kind of what I write in that article. Yeah, 

Tara: I mean, it’s a compelling title to on marketing, right? Like what, what, what is on marketing, I guess, 

Terry: is, you know, Well, I also say in there, like, I don’t make a lot of friends with this, like, because it is kind of an orthodox approach and do like, no, you know, because I mean, and I get it, like, it works for some schools, like really beautiful stuff, you know, the view books and, And the websites and the videos and all that, that’s very emotionally compelling.

Like, I, like, I’d love my kid to go there, but when it comes down to, you know, a, like I, Marin Montessori is a toddler through ninth grade kids school, right? So you’re looking at 30 grand to 40 grand for nine years before you get to high school, before you get to college, like, Having a beautiful view and, you know, a nice jungle gym is not enough, like it’s got to speak to something deep in it and you have to align yourself with parents.

So that’s, that’s my philosophy. 

Aubrey: I mean, I really appreciate you speaking to this because a lot of times yeah you’re like, Well, this has a better climbing gym than the school down the street, right? Like you were talking about earlier. So yeah, I think it’s understanding parents, as you said, their fears, like understanding their words, like what are their worries?

Why, what would make them want to send their child here? Um, it’s usually something like a fear or a concern or an alternative that they’re not willing to take. to embrace. Um, so once you understand that, that can help you understand like, is your school the best fit for them? And then how do you talk about 

Terry: it?

You talk about it. Yeah. So I think that’s, that’s the one sort of, I think, um, insight that might be useful to other schools. Um, I think it’s hard work to really do that kind of research and to test it, to see if you’re right. You know, you have to talk to parents, you have to, I mean, I do a lot of focus groups.

Um, I, I am just trying to get in there. And the other thing that the article talks about is just the, the role of faculty in this is so essential because they know, they know why parents are worried. They know when they make a connection with a family that is, um, sort of rock solid and that, you know, Builds this trust bank that is really essential to build the sense of that the school is invaluable to a family.

Like the parents, I mean, the teachers are doing it every day. And most I’ve been at schools where the marketers, like they’re like the CFO, you know, back in an office, they’ve never, they don’t go into a classroom. They don’t know anything about education, really, you know, they can come from an insurance company or something, or, you know, which is fine.

I don’t, I don’t mean to be critical, but like, it’s just like the schools are like, very strange and wonderful places. And so, uh, you know, your faculty know this stuff. So aligning with your faculty and knowing that and talking to them is really important too. 

Tara: Yeah, I think that’s a really key point. I want to dive into that a little bit.

So, um, probably nobody would disagree with that statement. But, But how do you actually do that, right? Like, how does a school marketer, you know, if they’re listening to this, um, what’s the best way to go about getting that faculty input? Um, is it just sitting down with them? Uh, once? Is it a regular touch base every month?

What, what kind, what do you recommend as a process? 

Terry: Well, the first thing I would say is that faculty are people too, and they have their own fears, anxieties, and aspirations. And one of the things that if you talk to teachers long enough and you get them to talk, one of the things they will often say is that they can feel invisible.

That they don’t feel seen. That, um, and there are, um, things, amazing things they’re doing that just go. Right past everybody, even the director of the program might not know what’s happening, and the only people who know about it are the kids in the class and sometimes their parents. So, one of the things that I’ve always tried to do is like find platforms for showcasing the work of faculty and students, and people respond very well if they feel seen.

Right. So, um, at Hathaway Brown, when I was in charge of the alumni magazine, like the, one of the first things we did with the redesign is did just the whole thing on faculty, um, did a big photo shoot, did all that sort of stuff. They appreciate it. Right. Then I, um, you know, hopefully we’ll have a chance. I can talk more about the sort of second websites.

I always, I’ve made a couple or a couple of schools, but I, we’re in Montessori. We made a new site called grounded and soaring. Um, And it’s a separate site, I can talk about why we did a second site, but basically it’s a content hub. So it has podcasts, it has blog posts, it has what I call featured projects and, and video.

And it gives them a platform for to highlight what faculty are doing and I will go in and I will help them write the article. I got. a stipend. I got a fund. I took some of my advertising budget and reallocated it for stipends and pay them to be on the podcast or pay them to help write a blog post. They appreciate that, you know, and, um, it also elevates their work, gives them a platform.

Um, and so I’ll give a quick example that I, this teacher at Marin had this great, it’s a Montessori school, so there’s a lot of student agency and students doing interesting things. And these two boys were really interested in elephant seals. We’re in a great part of California. They’re elephant seals, not too far away.

Um, and so they do the same in Montessori education called the going out where they basically structured time to go out and they have to, you know, coordinate the van driving and they got to do the, you know, the, the map and they, and the teacher stays way back. Right. And the kids do a thing. They were doing a science thing and they made it a painted a drawing or something like that.

And she was telling me this, I don’t know, when over lunch or I don’t know, that CPR training or something. I was like, Hey. Let’s write an article. She’s like, I don’t have time to write an article. It’s like, well, I’ll come sit down. I’ll talk to you. So she talked for like 40 minutes and it was sort of meandering.

I was like, you know what? Pause. Uh, we’re going to your computer. We’re going to hit Google, make a Google document, go to voice record. And just talking to the computer, just tell the whole story to computer. It’ll voice to text it. It’ll come up with this big block of text and then share it with me. And I will turn it into a story.

Um, and, uh, we did, she did that. I did it. It took a couple of drafts back and forth, got some photos, wrote this thing, published it, promoted it on the social media channels and the newsletter. And that made her feel so seen. Right. And it was incredible content because it was actually, you see what’s happening, why you would invest money in this school is because of that kind of experience.

And there’s no way of really, you know, an alumni magazine that you spend 30 grand on to public like you’re not getting that story that took time, but it wasn’t any money, you know, and it was really valuable experience. So that’s kind of a long winded way of an example of what you could do. 

Aubrey: That’s so interesting.

Um, I’ve said, first of all, my kids are in a Montessori school, so I’m all familiar with the going out. So, uh, thanks for highlighting them. Um, it’s so interesting what you were saying about potentially, like, what I’m hearing is like, find how you can make it easiest to collect that information from faculty, right?

You’re like, what’s the easiest path? If they’re not going to write it, like, can we voice memo it? Can they sit with us and we take notes, we video them or something like that? Yeah. And then also it was interesting what you said about paying them because that is an interesting, like that makes perfect sense, you know, if you’re taking part of your budget, you’re saying, okay, let’s reward them for the work that they’re doing.

It doesn’t become just one more thing we’re putting on faculty’s plate, um, already full plate, I should say. Um, so very interesting concept. So thanks so much for 

Terry: sharing that. Podcasting tool is so valuable to me, you know, like it’s not an expensive enterprise, it takes some work. Right. But so I have this podcast Grounded and Soaring and I always try and find topics that aren’t promotional.

That’s the other thing I would say here in this sort of meandering conversation is like, Stop, stop promoting like I stop promoting. Right? Instead, talk about stories that are, tell stories that are answering the anxieties that parents have. So they, I observed a, a math class up in the, uh, junior high. And these teachers were doing this cool thing, you know, it was very Montessori, right?

They had all mixed age groups and they had two teachers and they were, you know, responding to each kid. And in some ways it was like, this is what the master school was trying to, is trying to do and mastery movement. It’s trying to be individualized and, and follow kids curiosities. So I just invited them onto the podcast.

And so I, and the topic wasn’t like how great our math program is. The topic was like, How do you, how do you teach math in, you know, in a world filled with math anxiety and distraction? So, and these guys were the experts. The teachers were the experts and they, and they showcased their work, but it wasn’t, you know, it wasn’t directly promotional.

And that’s the other thing I think is valuable sort of tweak and how schools generally do things. Oh, you’re on mute. Sorry. 

Aubrey: I love that. Especially the math. Um, because we, we always say, how do you make your kid not hate math? I mean, that’s so important because, um, a lot of us have grown up with negative things around math.

So 

Terry: I would encourage people to list that episode because it, I mean, for a lot of reasons, an example, but like, it does talk about that and, and having the teachers be the voice of it. So 

Aubrey: interesting. Thanks so much for sharing. Um, I’m curious, like, what do you think, as you’ve kind of worked on, um, these strategies within schools, what do you think the biggest challenges for schools who are thinking about integrating some of these concepts?

Terry: Well, it’s unorthodox. And so people have resistance to change. There’s, you know, I’ve certainly faced that in every school. Um, and, uh, it can feel kind of risky and it can feel like more work. It’s cheaper to spend. I’ve spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on advertise. I’ve done hundreds of thousands of direct mail.

Like that’s easy. It’s expensive, but it’s easy. You’re sort of exchanging money for labor, um, and intrusion and change, right? So I spend less and change more and that, you know, some places would rather just spend more and change less. So I think that’s a, that’s a, that’s a challenge. And it’s also requires, um, sort of a re imagining Of the relationship between program and what parents are worried about.

So this is another controversial thing that I say sometimes, which is that I think that the person in my job should be at the table when with the program leaders. I’m not just to capture what they’re doing but to give some insight like hey if we did it this way. Right. If like. You know, for example, uh, one of the things that’s happening in our school is that there’s all kinds of really wonderful things happening in our own elementary program, but they’re not nested under anything.

And so parents don’t really know about them or see them and they don’t see how they’re coordinated in this really deliberate way. And so I come up with language like, well, what if we call them like the capstone experiences and they, that’s the nesting language and we have all these different elements inside of them.

You don’t necessarily have to change anything, but we talk about them differently. And, you know. Not every, you know, the level director or, you know, is, is all that interested in that kind of partnership. I’m fortunate that at Marin Montessori, they are. And, um, certainly at Hawken, um, that was a big deal when we were doing the mastery program.

So I think that is a, that’s a major challenge, um, is that the, the market, the person to my role that it, you know, has to really connect with and be in conversation with the, with the program leaders. Yeah, 

Tara: I can see how that might, that might be a, an uphill battle in some cases. It’s like, it’s just not the way, the natural way that people think about this.

So, I mean, that’s where maybe the unmarketing concept comes in, but let’s say that listeners of this episode are, you know, on board and, and you’re super motivated and you’re passionate. So I think, you know, you can, um, people can pick up the value of what you’re talking about. But what’s a strategy that they can start with in preparation for, let’s say, the next school year, uh, in terms of implementing this philosophy and, and passing it through the, the system in their school, whether they have a board or, you know, a head of school or someone that they need to work with to get this message across.

I suppose they could share this episode with them. But, um, you know, what’s it, what’s the strategic approach? Yeah. 

Terry: So, I mean, I think the, uh, I always try to work backwards. Um, you know, I wouldn’t necessarily think about what website you’re going to build or what your message is. I would start talking to parents.

Um, and I would start talking to faculty around this idea of anxieties and aspirations. What is really underneath it that is driving people to make this choice to come and to stay, you know, when faculty talk to parents who are like, who are true believers, why are they here when fat when you have attrition issues.

I did a big exit interview this summer like I just talked to him like, why’d you leave, you know, and those conversations, they’ll talk to me I’m like, you know, I’m kind of anonymous I, you know, they’ll tell me things and. It’s really helpful because it can tell us like, okay, so we think that they’re here because of X, but they’re actually, but they, and they may have came for come for X, but then they leave for Y.

It’s like, that’s really important. So what can we do, not just like what kind of language can we use, but like what programmatically can we do to understand it because we’re not addressing the same anxiety they’re having and sometimes it’s just a very pragmatic and sometimes it’s more philosophical. Um, And so you got to, so the first thing to do is just to talk and then to listen.

You got to listen. And, um, I have, you know, it’s always hard to listen. It’s easier said than done. Right. But try to also hold withhold your assumptions of what they’re going to say. And, um, and just really try and pay attention. 

Aubrey: I love that. That’s so important. We do a lot of, um, research like this for schools because, you know, it’s important to understand where the parents are coming from.

And sometimes even the students, if you’re, you have upper grades as well to understand like why they came, why they stayed, why they’re leaving. And then like just hearing and listening to them about, um, about your school, um, can help inform so much of, of what you’re saying here today. So I appreciate you bringing that up.

Um, I’d like to kind of switch. A little bit to, um, you know, as you know, with this podcast, we talk about mindfulness, it’s mindful school marketing podcasts and how it applies to working in schools, how do you see mindfulness, um, in relation to your role in schools and also in relation to this topic? 

Terry: Well, I mean, I think the idea of listening is sort of also about quieting yourself, right?

So, um, I think that, uh, the. Part of what, you know, I, so I also, I’m a writer guy, so like I write stories and things like that, and so most of what that act is, is just staying quiet and separating your ego from the world that’s, that you’re encountering, so that you can be open to absorbing it. So, um, that, that’s sort of a, I don’t know if it’s natural, but certainly something I’ve cultivated is trying to be, to be quiet.

Um, uh, I also just as a practical thing, like there are lots of times where I just turn off everything. Like when I drive, we’ve got, you know, San Francisco is great, but there’s traffic. And so I’ll, you know, my 15 mile drive drive can be 50 minutes. So there are lots of times where I’ll just turn off everything and just let, and be quiet.

Um, and that’s, that’s helpful. Um, it helps me with. work, you know, if I’m thinking about, you know, something I’m trying to accomplish or what I’m writing or things like that. So, um, but yeah, yeah, shutting up and listening is pretty good advice. 

Tara: Yes, I appreciate that. Thank you. Um, all right, we are going to move into our rapid fire questions now.

So these are fun. Um, so we’re going to start with my favorite. If you could put one book as mandatory reading in the high school curriculum, what would 

Terry: it be? I, this was the easy one for me. Uh, it’s called amusing ourselves to death by Neil Postman, 1982. I think, uh, it’s a bit of sociology and criticism of what he was seeing and how culture was changing.

Um, and now it’s like this quaint little book about how bad TV was in the 19 early seventies, seventies and eighties, and how it was changing people’s minds. And now I always, when I teach this class, I always have them write the next The next chapter about today. Um, and, uh, yeah, it’s a really powerful book.

Um, and it and it and it holds up. 

Aubrey: Thanks so much for sharing. We’ll add it to our good reads list to our listeners. 

Terry: Not a fun read, but it’s a good read. 

Aubrey: That’s great. My Children are young. So you can imagine as we run this podcast, how many books I have now lined up for them to read before high school. Um, so next question.

What is one app you couldn’t live without? 

Terry: Uh, I really like all trails. We do a lot of hiking around here. Uh, and, uh, it’s pretty powerful. Um, my wife has a tendency of like, just thinking she knows where we’re going and we get lost, so now I can like, now I can show her which way to go. I love all 

Tara: trails.

Yeah. I love it. I am a huge fan. Yeah. Awesome. What are you reading right now? 

Terry: Reading a book called The Rabbit Hutch. Um, it’s a novel that’s going to win a bunch of awards. Um, I try to read, and honestly, I read fiction more than anything else. I, I, I try and stay clear of all the other stuff because I like the stories.

Aubrey: Thank you. What is one great piece of advice you’d like to leave us with? Um, 

Terry: so I thought about this. I think. I’m going to try and articulate this clearly. Uh, I think the piece of advice is like that organizational principles really matter. What I mean by that is what you organize around will in some ways determine both the structure of what you create and the results.

More specifically, like if you organize around your school, it’s going, you’re going, and when you do this kind of work, like you’re going to say, eventually say certain kinds of things. But if you organize around your audience, you’ll say different things. And I think that’ll lead to different results. So thinking about organizational principles are really important.

And I often like I will always talk about this like, you know, when I’ll talk to, you know, the head of school or something like that and he wants to talk about x and like, well, let’s organize it around this parental anxiety, we can end up talking about x. But it’s much better. It will be more effective.

It’s just we already know what that what X is solving for parents. So that’s that. I would that’s my piece of advice. 

Tara: Great. Thank you so much. You’ve shared such great ideas with us today. I’m excited to get this out there for our listeners. Where can people find you online, Terry? 

Terry: Well, all my, like, Instagram stuff is just, like, pictures of my kids, uh, so I would just do LinkedIn, look for Terry Dubrow on LinkedIn, or you can Google me, I will say that one thing, if you Google me, uh, which I have Googled myself, I will admit that, uh, there is someone named Terry Dubrow, who’s a very famous plastic surgeon of the stars, like, there’s a lot of content that I don’t really affiliate with on there, but if you Google me, you’ll see, you’ll find my stories and all that other stuff I do.

Excellent. 

Tara: Thank you. All right. Thanks for joining us, Terry. Have a great day.