123. Should Your School Say Yes to Vouchers? with Steve Salvo and Michael Christopher

The following content has been automatically generated by an AI system from the audio recording of this podcast. We cannot guarantee the accuracy, or completeness of the information provided, and we apologize for any errors.

[00:00:00] Welcome to Mindful School Marketing, your go-to podcast for personal and professional growth. We’re school marketers, business owners, and moms passionate about connecting other school professionals with tools and strategies for success. We love solving problems, exploring new ideas, and thinking outside the box.

Let’s transform your school and life starting right now. This episode is brought to you by The Small School Leaders Conference happening online. February 3rd through sixth, discover Strategies to Help your school thrive. Learn more@smallschoolsconference.com. See you there. 

Tara: Welcome to Mindful School Marketing. I’m Aubrey Burch. And I’m Tara Clays. Today we’re joined by Steve Salvo and Michael Christopher. Steve serves as the head of school at St. Mary’s Episcopal Day School in Tampa, an ISM adjunct consultant who presents annually at the ISM Advancement Academy Conference and FCIS board member.

Steve has presented on advancement related topics at a wide. Array of [00:01:00] other regional and national education conferences. He’s a presenter for FCIS at their Prospective Heads Institute conference and was a 2023 Klingenstein Head of School fellow at Columbia University. 

Aubrey: Michael is a full-time consultant with independent school management ISM, specializing in strategic planning, board operations development and enrollment management.

He has served nearly 200 schools during his time with the organization. He currently edits isms, ideas and perspectives. And is a founding member of the faculty of the ISM Advancement Academy. Prior to joining ISM, full-time, Michael held key leadership roles at independent schools where he rebuilt development and alumni programs, oversaw capital campaigns, and managed I image and identity campaigns.

We’re thrilled to have both Michael and Steve here today with us. Welcome. 

Steve: Hi, Bri. Hi, Tara. Great to be here. 

Michael: Yeah, I’m thrilled to be part of this. Uh, it’s an important topic and uh, and something we could probably talk about all day. 

Aubrey: [00:02:00] Yeah, I’m really excited about this topic and it’s one we wanted to bring you on the show for, um, you are presenting at the small school leaders conference about this topic and I was like, oh, let’s bring them on because, uh, this is something we hear often come up, especially for our small school friends and, um, our independent and private school schools out there.

You know, they’re like, okay, vouchers, school choice. This comes up in a lot of conversations. A lot of states are making decisions about. About this. You know, before we dive into this topic though, I think it’s really important for us to understand and for, for our audience out there to understand like, what do we mean when we say voucher programs or school choice?

Um, what does that look like and, and kind of defining what that looks like right now. 

Michael: Well, that’s, that’s a great question. Uh, Aubrey, I, I tell you that it’s a, it’s a kaleidoscope of, uh. Programs and, uh, acronyms. And so we we’re sort of, uh, saying it is one thing is probably impossible, but what we know is 34 states.

As of this recording, 34 states [00:03:00] are have some kind of voucher program, some kind of way that the states give money to parents in order to attend private schools rather than applying that money, uh, in many cases to their public school counterparts. So, of those 34 states 18 have, uh, what could be called a universal pathway to these vouchers.

In other words. Uh, you can get an ESA or some kind of reimbursement for tuition without having to show any kind of need for that. And these 18 states sometimes mix them also with other programs that have a need. And I think that’s true in Florida, isn’t it, Steve? 

Steve: It is indeed. Yeah. 

Michael: So, so, and, and some of them are quite generous.

I know Florida, I mean, it’s, um. 75 or 8,000? 70 508,000. I’m not quite sure which it is. Steve, you would tell me better than that? I can, but honestly it’s, it’s a lot of money for a lot of [00:04:00] schools and especially small schools are seeing this a bit of a windfall for their program.

Tara: It’s, I’m so glad to have both of you on, because you both come from different angles, right? Steve is the head of school. You’re living through this in real time. And Michael, in your role working with schools across the country through ISM, so. Could you each share a little bit about your role and how you found yourself in this conversation about vouchers?

Where, where, how did you get, how did you get into this in the first place? 

Steve: So as a head of school and as a colleague of Michael’s, I actually, he and I have talked about this topic as both, um, someone I was seeking advice, uh, on a national level just to understand a little bit more about the programs and obviously, uh, also for support.

’cause we’ve had some philanthropic endeavors here associated with that. And it’s been great to have a sounding board like Michael head of school in Florida. The state scholarship program has been here for decades, [00:05:00] 2023. It was expanded through state legislation and that’s really where this all starts.

And it was under the spirit of, I’d say school choice and or educational freedom to expand school choice option school, educational freedom options for all families. And in Florida that there’s no income requirement. So there’s no income cap. No income requirements. It is the, the spirit of this is that every family, every student should have access to educational choice and options that are best for them.

So in 2023, that legislation passed our school spent approximately, I’d say 18 months researching this. I know we’re gonna talk about some of those topics, uh, later in the podcast. Uh, and just really looking at the pros and cons of that. Um, understanding where that places us in the competitive niche and, and potential, you know, strategic and operational impacts to both our, our, our long-term and current operating budget.

[00:06:00] So, uh, it’s a, it’s a big, as Michael indicated, it’s a, a big endeavor. It could be, um, some schools, some private schools. Are actually, I think essentially running off of this scholarship in our state. There are over 3000 private schools in the state of Florida and there’s quite a few new schools that have emerged.

And I think it’s primarily because of, um, of this, in many cases, the scholarship. And uh, that’s obviously a risky proposition because the program better stick around. 

Michael: That’s sort of where I, the lens I come at it, which is two, two lenses. One is financial planning. I mean, what kind of impact on your budget is this going to have and what kind of planning do you have to do in order to, number one, accommodate.

This money into your budget. And number two, plan for if it goes away so that, you know, those are the two, those are the two aspects of that that you have to think about. The other aspects that, uh, we come through as consultants is, uh, fundraising. Does this have a [00:07:00] fundraising potential to it or, uh, or is it found money that people are just gonna say, now I’ve got that money free.

I can. Spend it on something else. So, you know, we’ve got, we’ve got that aspect. And the third issue, which I think is is something that all, all of us as schools have to think about is that we’re private schools for a reason. And the reason we’re private schools is that we can determine our own curriculum.

We can determine who teaches at our schools. We can set our own budgets. We can determine our own governance policies, and we can say who comes as students and who doesn’t. That’s the idea of having a private school. So when the government begins to fund private schools, there is the. Implied risk that we are, that we are going to lose some of that or all of that independence.

And every state has [00:08:00] approached that differently. So, so that’s the other lens that as a consultant, I come in to help schools think through those.

Aubrey: Yeah, those are fascinating. And I know we’re gonna dive into each of those issues as we move through the podcast. Thank you for so much for sharing. Steve, I’d love to kind of dive into, you know, you mentioned it before like. So you mentioned like 18 months of, of figuring out like, is should we implement this?

Like what are the, what are the things, pros, cons, and everything like that. Could you kind of talk us through this process? Because I know that’s one of the things that our schools out there are asking. Like, okay, so if this comes up, like what do we need to think about? Like what questions were, did you and your board discuss?

Like what questions were, you know, you know, you thinking about and like what actually convinced you to then move forward with it? 

Steve: I, I think, uh, so yes, it’s summer of 2023 legislation passes and we just start beginning doing our research. Quite honestly, our school had never accepted state or federal dollars.

[00:09:00] There was one exception, and that I think was something that a lot of our schools experienced was in 2020 2021, the PPP loans that went out, that had clear forgiveness terms to them. And I think people felt comfortable doing that because they felt like, well, for only for a short duration, but they have some sort of.

Obligation or tie to federal or state requirements. But we, we looked at it. So we’re a parish day school and uh, and you have to start with mission and you have to start with why. And for us, we looked at from mission, uh, you know, would this impact. The way our spiritual program is designed, the way our religious program is, uh, is delivered.

And I think that would probably be a showstopper for our governance leaders, which is whether that be our school board or our church vestry. Then, you know, there’s a hot button topic has been faculty and staff recruitment, and we really wanted to look at what were the implications of this for. Attracting and retaining the most talented faculty around because ho honestly, independent schools offer [00:10:00] typically more autonomy and freedom, and the ability to not have to necessarily teach to a specific curriculum, which is another requirement.

What are the state testing requirements? I believe every kid needs a great, deserves a wonderful educational experience, public, private, homeschooling network, online school, whatever it is. But I also think you, uh, you need to build your base, your curriculum program, your pedagogical approaches your assessment practices to, to your mission and your why.

Uh, we really wanted to research that thoroughly to see what those requirements might, what might be admissions, does that change who we are from an admission standpoint, which also ties back to mission. The interesting part of Florida, I will say from an admission standpoint is enrollment is really strong here.

The, the demographics across the state are a state are stellar. So I think that, um. The notion that this would create new pathways for new students. To find new schools, I [00:11:00] think was a little misleading, uh, here, just because, uh, I think what it it found out is that we already have really well attended schools with very few openings.

As more and more people continue to move down to the state of Florida. Uh, it, the scholarship dollars in many cases appear to be going to students already enrolled at private independent schools. So just something that, things, those are some big topics to consider at a top level. And then, uh, going from there, we just, um, obviously there’s, there’s a lot on the financial end because you have to forecast for the future and you have to forecast for a various number of scenarios.

Tara: So Florida is a, a standout and I appreciate learning about that state. Now Michael, you work with schools in lots of different states, um, and some of them, you know, as you mentioned, there are different. Things happening in different, their states are in different stages of this process, right? So when a school says that they’re thinking about joining a vo, a voucher, or an ESA program, what are the [00:12:00] questions, the non-negotiable questions that you want them to answer before they move forward and sign anything?

Michael: So that’s a, I appreciate that question because there are some non-negotiables. One of them is, do you have a strong strategic financial plan in place? And, and a plan that does not, and this is really important, does not take into account the vouchers. In other words, can you survive without vouchers? Is there, is there any reason, is there a survivor?

Reason, survival, sorry. Survival reason that you have for for adopting the voucher program. If there is, then your long-term viability is at risk because otherwise what ha what’ll happen is if the legislature as legislatures do suddenly changes their mind, uh, you’re gonna be left. Unable to, uh, to proceed be, uh, to fund your budget because you’ve been so dependent on the voucher.

So, we, our pres [00:13:00] presumption is that you’re going to have to build cash reserves prior to establishing a voucher program so that those cash reserves can step in, in case that you lose access to them. The other. Way that you can lose access to funds is if Florida, for example, uh, suddenly decides you need a needs test in order to, uh, in order to, qualify for the voucher. And they’re doing that because they didn’t realize how much money they’d be spending on these voucher programs when they started. This is what happens. So, uh, you have to be able to, to account for those kinds of changes and you could be drastically reduces. A third thing issue you have to solve, I think before you adopt it is what are you going to do about, uh, families that are on financial aid?

So if you have a, if you have a family, uh, that is receiving, let’s say you have a $20,000 tuition they’re on $10,000 [00:14:00] financial aid, suddenly there’s a state scholarship available for $7,500. What are you gonna do about that? Almost every school that I’ve encountered, and, and it would be my advice to do this, has said that has to be deducted from your financial aid award.

So if you receive the $7,500 tax credit that mitigates that financial aid award. So what is the school? And if the school is doing really responsible planning, what they will do is reserve the 7,500 they would’ve awarded for financial aid. Reserve that in their cash reserve so that they can save for later, for when that money goes away.

So it to me, the non-negotiables are, you have to decide what your financial status will be and sustainability. The second non-negotiable is, can you undertake these, te these programs and maintain [00:15:00] the integrity of your program? That’s just, you’ve got to make that decision before you ever start it, because program integrity is why your students enroll in your school.

They don’t enroll because you’re cheap. They don’t enroll because, because they can afford you. They enroll because of your mission, as Steve said, and you have to maintain that as part of your focus. 

Steve: Michael, we found that, uh, some many schools here are actually requiring financial aid families, particularly those who receive, uh, have routinely received amounts.

And, and usually it’s a need-based qualifying platform that we recommend. You obviously use a qualifying software for that and have a process. But families that receive more than the financial aid, the voucher amount award, uh, as a financial labor award routinely are required to apply. For the voucher, which quite honestly is not a requirement for individual families.

There are some implications for families to look look at that. And there’s some responsibilities when you receive [00:16:00] state scholarship dollars as well, as far as reporting. And, um, uh, not, not all schools have a hundred percent parent participation or buy into that. Right. 

Aubrey: That’s really interesting. Thank you for sharing.

I kind of like to shift the conversation a bit. One of the things that we kind of talked about a little bit earlier, but it’s, it’s that idea of like, so, so using these vouchers and, and using, you know, state funds and stuff like that, you know, one of the biggest fears we hear is like, will this change who we are?

Right. From I’m, I’m wondering like in terms of, from what you’re seeing, like how can schools realistically assess the impact, like on mission, culture, student mix, faculty, right. We talked about faculty earlier and are there any red flags? That you tell school, like you tell us schools in terms of like when this might not be a good fit based on those above factors.

Michael: Well, I think, go ahead Steve, please. 

Steve: I was just gonna say, well, we, when we were undergoing our discernment process, I, uh, made it [00:17:00] very intentional to involve other people, including other perspectives. No doubt. We have board members, many of them who are current parents. This is the case at most independent schools who feel some cocktail party pressure when their friends are talking about, Hey, did you hear there’s a voucher program out there that could.

Reduce our individual tuition obligation for, I don’t know, 25 to 40% per child enrolled at this school. So I wanted to incre create a, a, a culture here where, um, it, we, we, a group looked at, it was a committee-based approach. So, but visiting other schools, there are schools, again, typically these states that have long been associated with such programs.

Or even one that’s just been involved for a couple years. Understanding, like what are the requirements in order to manage this program and what have the impacts been? And not just talking to the head of school or the business office, but also, you know, teacher leaders and just saying, have you noticed anything d different?

Are you, what are you using for state end of the year testing? Has that changed in recent years? We thoroughly unpacked that [00:18:00] you have to read through handbooks, quite honestly. You have to look at legislative updates as well. Become familiar. It’s kind of like I’m having a flashback to the COVID times when down here I was looking at, you know, medical COVID, like infection rates in different neighborhoods.

To understand what we were gonna do about masks, we had to do the same thing in just in, just in regards to this as well, and just understanding the dynamics involved. 

Michael: Well, and so what that means, Steve, is you have to have a attorney working with your board who understands legislative language and will help you interpret, uh, vis-a-vis your bylaws and your charter, how that might affect it.

Because the, it’s within your bylaws, charter and mission that, uh, your, your legal stance is a not-for-profit, and you need to know what’s going to interfere with that as you, uh, as you identify it. The other thing I would mention is that. I live in Tennessee. I live in Memphis, and, uh, we have a lot of private schools here.

And of course, the state published a list of [00:19:00] those schools that were using the voucher program. So when you talk about peer pressure at cocktail parties, there’s also peer pressure among competitive schools. Uh, well, they’re not gonna offer it well, shouldn’t we? Or, and that sort of, that sort of thing makes schools.

Think that they have to do the voucher program in order to admit students. That is a felt that could be a dangerous conclusion because because when you do that, you’re sometimes competing on the wrong foot footing. You don’t compete because you have voucher programs. You compete because you have a competitive niche within your community that is distinctive and serves a defined population.

Steve: That’s a very common, uh, that’s very common to hear that down here. We were the last school in our market. I did not have a choice. My board did not have a choice on that matter even if a, a school leadership team was philosophically opposed to the concept. [00:20:00] Very common theme, right? 

Tara: Mm. Yep. So interesting.

It’s a lot, it’s a lot of there are a lot of factors and a lot of things to consider when you, when you sign up for this that I, it’s not, it’s not straightforward at all. Uh, I wanna talk about marketing. So once, once you’ve signed up for this. Um, made the decision that it’s gonna work for your school or you know, that you’re pressured into doing it.

What, however, however you end up there. How do you recommend that schools talk about vouchers and this program in their website copy in their, you know, in their social media, in their enrollment conversations, so that your. Highlighting the increased access the affordability without making it like, Hey, now we’re cheap.

So how do you, how do you balance that and how do you communicate this in your marketing? 

Steve: I, I think there’s a, there’s a public relations dynamic where you might wanna take it to another level and really consult with an outside expert because there is a, there is some [00:21:00] varied public opinion right now about vouchers.

The, the naysayer would say that private, independent schools. To be able to continue attending schools at a lower cost. So that is the kind of the naysayer perspective that you sometimes hear. Um, but en engaging a public relations consultant can help you with wording and messaging that ties to your mission.

You need to make sure you communicate effectively with your faculty and staff. ’cause there could be tremendous confusion there. And you wanna make sure they understand that their jobs will be. Hopefully continuing as structured in their current job descriptions and then with parents. I think you just need to, uh, need to be very clear.

I mean, the timing of this is a whole other matter when you decide to do this. Most schools are marketing or sending out their enrollment agreements, re-enrollment agreements, let’s say in late January of each year. And with state legislatures. I know here in Florida the state legislator house and Senate will not be talking about next year’s budget until May and June.

And so can you [00:22:00] imagine if, and and it’s becoming, yeah, there’s some differences in the budget because there’s half a million kids involved in this program in Florida and it’s very expensive to run, as you might imagine. And if they made changes at that hour, that’s again, we need to have some scenario planning in place, some forecasts.

You could see a, a substantial last minute changes and frantically you need to be very clear on your enrollment agreement, on the financial aid letters that you send out. And then I think the rest of it just needs to be tied to your, to your mission and, and, and, and probably reassuring that we’re gonna still continue to deliver this mission unless you choose to make a change based on this program so that you’re, you’re comforting and inspiring both current and prospective families.

Michael: Steve, I couldn’t say it better than that. I think that I think that if you follow the old adage, tell ’em what you’re gonna tell ’em. Tell ’em and tell ’em what you’ve told them at every stage in this. And absolute [00:23:00] transparency. Absolute. And you tell them over and over and over again that this is gonna be a message that has to I worked with the school, the, uh, last week or so where one of the parents was really angry that they lost their financial aid or that the state voucher was taken out of their financial aid award.

And that particular parent had been told at least five times that that was gonna happen. Right. What happens is people don’t listen and people don’t hear, and our responsibility is to keep telling people the same thing over and over and over again. So every message has to be clear. The other thing I would say to Steve’s point is that you have to be clear about the fact that it could change.

It could change that there’s nothing written in stone and you have to say it at every. Opportunity you can so that people are prepared for what could happen on the other side of that, as Steve mentioned also in scenario planning, is that your board has [00:24:00] to have built that scenario many times over as we’ve been talking about, about what will happen if, and that’s a great retreat topic.

It’s a great board meeting topic, uh, and ought to be an, uh, a finance committee’s keeping finance committee members up at night sort of, uh, sort of topic because you really have to, to pay attention. 

Steve: Aubrey and Tara, I would also answer that in, in global themes from a marketing lens of trying to make you both proud as marketing folks.

If your school costs $20,000 tuition and you start taking a TA voucher, like Michael mentioned, that drops your tuition to, let’s say 12,500. You need to still market your school like it’s a $20,000 school and reminds your parents. Tuition is $20,000. Right now. We are participating in a scholarship program.

How lucky are, are you? And we that we have this option and, and we would truly hope that you would consider some or all of that back to our school because it’s a, it could consult with your tax advisor, but it could be a charitable contribution and, and so [00:25:00] forth. Please consult with your tax advisor on that.

And, but our school is still running. That’s what it costs to educate your child. That is not changing and that is gonna only continually to increase as we continue to grow the program. And we have to afford, afford and pay for our most valuable resources, which is our teachers and our staff that deliver the magic each and every day.

If you could just reiterate that, that we are not a, now a $12,500 school. We are not at the price option in our market. We are still delivering on the same promises before. 

Aubrey: That is so critical. I think the messaging and communication you both spoke about, about the message, the, the communication ongoing, like.

We, we talk about how many points it takes to educate parents, right? So many, so many times, these busy parents. And then also maintaining like, you are the $20,000 school you still are. And that would help, I think, reduce some of the, um, change should it happen with vouchers, you know, with [00:26:00] voucher program goes away or it gets altered or the school decides not to participate in it anymore.

So very important things you’ve brought up here. Um, I’d love to talk a little bit about something that. We often keep, you know, here coming up. And that’s about you know, that general debate about like the benefits of these programs and what it means for equity public schools and students with different needs.

So I’m curious, like when you’re talking with boards and faculty who are, might be worried, concerned about these issues, like how are you navigating those discussions and maybe. Talking to ’em about potential trade-offs, trade-offs, um, with, you know, and keeping the conversations grounded more in the school’s mission.

Michael: Well, I don’t, the first thing you have to say to boards is we’re not changing our admission policy because admission policies inform your mission, right? And admission is with mission, right? So your admission policies. Have to, uh, have to stay focused in spite of the [00:27:00] fact that you might have more people affording the, the school.

So, but, but what, what the opportunity in that at the same time is that you can admit more students from a broader range of families. Presuming, uh, because of the voucher system, presuming that they understand coming in what the risks are that we’ve been talking about all along, right? And that, and for a lot of our schools that are wanting their their population to be more diverse, this is gonna be a great opportunity for them.

There’s no question about that, to, to, to strengthen that aspect of their school. But. There are all the risks involved in that too. So I, I don’t know if I’m answering your question Aubrey, but but quite honestly, this is, this is complicated. Uh, and the best thing I can say to a, to a school is stay focused on who you are now and going forward.

Don’t change [00:28:00] who you are. Just open the doors a little wider to people who will. Who, who can benefit from who you are and are mission appropriate.

Aubrey: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I’m curious because I know a lot of the conversations that we hear about are, you know, people feel very strongly about. Whether or not they want their school to participate and what that means on their surrounding communities and you know, socioeconomic pieces.

So yeah. Thank you. That was helpful. I’m curious, Tara, did you have anything to add or Steve. 

Steve: I, I can say that, you know, there’s always, it’s, it’s gonna vary from market to market and I agree with Michael, and you really need to look at your admission policies more to, uh, admission has, and enrollment has so many different, there’s types of composition, there’s, you know, gender based diversity.

There’s just, you know, cultural sec, socioeconomic, you just have to really think what ties most to our mission and who do who we want to be, who do we aspire to be? Uh, it could be a tool that helps get you there. [00:29:00] It could also create some situations of mission drift if it conflicts with what you’re trying to do.

So, um, just, you just need to really be thoughtful and, and detailed as you look at your admission and enrollment management policies.

Tara: Thank you for that. I know we’ve kind of covered this a bit, but, but as we prepare to wrap up, talking about the, the pressure to decide one way or another that more and more schools are gonna be facing I’d love your best practical advice if a school chooses to participate. What needs to be communicated clearly to the families and the faculty in that first year, like right at the right, at the get go.

And if a school decides, no. Or not yet. We haven’t really covered that too much. How can they explain that in a way that’s transparent? Um, and that doesn’t dismiss the, the very real financial stress that families are feeling right now. 

Steve: I think the, the not yet is a great question, especially with schools that are going through that, uh, process of deliberating and, and really [00:30:00] assessing this.

And I think that, um, obviously you need to encourage, hopefully you have a, a need-based or maybe even a merit-based. Uh, financial aid program that could be accessible for families explaining, uh, most likely to your board, starting with your board of like how you will conduct the research to figure out if this is a great fit for our school, maybe involving others in appropriate ways.

Uh, like I said, I was visiting other school campuses, interviewing folks and, and just trying to understand impacts. I was also reading a lot. I was reading a lot of, uh, uh, legal like opinions and just, um, doc, well leading a lot of state documents in regards to handbook requirements. Uh, we started to do some preliminary work also with what would this mean to be registered and what will that process be?

You don’t wanna wait until you’ve actually made a decision because there is a heavy. At least in Florida, there is a heavy operational lift component to becoming a participant in these programs. To the extent that I have most school leaders telling me it’s requiring at least one [00:31:00] FTE to basically come on board as a scholarship coordinator.

And that’s something you obviously need to plan for for budgetary reasons and also for, yeah. Job functionality. So there’s, there’s all those things that, um, come into play and with, with budget season in right now, it’s something that schools should be considering. And then I think we, as you, as you go into the decision of, you know, deliberations at the board level, obviously those are gonna be, hopefully it’s very confidential.

I do think this is a strategic. Decision that the board needs to weigh on. There are major implications for this moving forward that could be both exciting and you also need to acknowledge, could be, could be risky and, uh, and, and somewhat dangerous if, uh, this program changes in some form or another and that’s incompatible with your approach to it.

Aubrey: No, that’s really helpful. Thank you so much. I, I mean, it sounds like it is, I mean, I, I, I’ve heard from multiple schools who have adopted some sort of school choice program that they have had to have extra, they’ve had to hire someone on because it’s just too [00:32:00] much to be able to do all that. I mean, like you said, you were comparing it to, I remember those days of COVID, we were monitoring everything, right.

Making the decisions like at 10:00 PM the night before, like it sounds like. You know, that was a lot and if that was a great comparison to how much it takes to be able to implement these programs and, and be mindful and stay on top of all that. So thank you for sharing. I was gonna switch us to our wrap up part of the program.

Are you ready for rapid fire questions? 

Michael: Oh, why not? 

Aubrey: Okay, here we go. It’s actually, I get so giddy at the end. So I’ll kick us off with one of our favorite. It’s, if you could put one book as mandatory reading in the high school curriculum, what would it be?

Steve: I, I’m gonna go with my favorite book as an educator and I still think, and it’s a book called Neuro Teach and it’s talks about mind brain education science and my I, Michael and other is m colleagues and I have talked about it a lot and I feel very passionate about it, that it embraces the process, it embraces the fact that you’re, uh, neuroplasticity and growth mindset are wonderful things.

Michael: Well, and mine is a little [00:33:00] different. It’s, uh. The Hamilton and Washington biographies by Ron Chernoff. And the reason for that, of course they’re long, but it teaches how we got where we are and there is so much, false characterization of how this country was established and why it was established and what people were in it were, were involved in it.

Ron Chernoff has really articulated in both of these books uh, an incredibly uh, important story. 

Tara: Thank you. Great suggestions. I’m gonna look up Neuro Teach right now and put it on our Good Reads list. Next question is, what is one app you could not live without? 

Steve: I go to bed every night with Spotify on, I’m a Boston Sports fan, so I left Bill Simmons the Ringer, bill Simmons, the Ringer podcast.

I will, I’ll set my timer and fall asleep to, you know, hearing us just discussion and debate about Boston sports teams [00:34:00] and other, uh, like N-B-A-N-F-L happenings right now. So, I love my Spotify app. 

Michael: Uh, for me there are two Fs, if I can, can cheat a little on this answer. Professionally, it’s LinkedIn. I can’t deal, I have to be on LinkedIn all, all the time just because of the.

Really incredible data that comes out of that. And I’m interested in folks and what they’re doing. The other one, oh my God, I gotta confess to this is the New York Times Games app. You know, I just wordle and all of those. I do that because it well anyway, I do. 

Tara: Oh my gosh, I’ve lost the wordle twice in the last week.

It’s been crazy this week. I 

Michael: lost one this week. I could die, but anyway. 

Tara: Ugh. I know. It’s so frustrating. Alright, what are you reading right now? 

Steve: I, I’m reading. It’s, it’s a stressful time of year. It’s, it’s, uh, it, the holiday season can be a little, uh, crazy here at a Episcopal school. So I like to stay mindful and dive back into the Power of Now by [00:35:00] Ecker Tole.

Michael: So I have to confess, I’m not quite the intellectual that my friend Steve is. My wife and I are reading a Aga Agatha Christie’s and then there were none, which is one of cited as one of the best murder mysteries ever. So that helps distract me from. Vouchers and other things. 

Aubrey: I love that for both, both of you.

I love that there’s like a fictional, like escapism piece and then there’s like the deep dive into like I have ecker to, I have that, that on my bedside. I have to take it in slow chunks and then I have to go to like an Agatha Christie to to, to relax. Um, so I’m curious like we’re wrapping up the show, what’s one great piece of advice you’d like to leave us with?

Steve: I was trying to think of one related to vouchers. It doesn’t, 

Aubrey: it doesn’t need to be related to vouchers. It can be life advice. Like we get a lot of like high up there, life advice, whatever comes to mind. 

Steve: I was just at the NIS, I’m sorry. I was just at the [00:36:00] FCIS annual convention and they were NI, the NIS uh, section there has free like photographs and the photographer was free, like profile shots, like LinkedIn shots.

So I can update my photo and from my friend Michael. But I was told like. I smile. My smile is very like, you just, just, sometimes you just gotta smile. Just smile, like, laugh, enjoy it. And my smile tends to be like a wide open view. And I, I just, I try to do that every day. Just gotta smile sometimes.

Find some humor in something. Doesn’t always have to be self-deprecating. Shouldn’t be hopefully at the expense of someone else. But find something that brings you joy and just smile every day. ’cause it’s really, it’s, it’s needed. Especially when you’re, uh, you’re talking about vouchers. 

Tara: Thank 

Michael: you so much.

Yeah. Yeah. My, my thought is always try to be as authentic as you possibly can with everybody you’re dealing with. And remember that you’re not the only one who’s got issues that you have to deal with. Everybody’s got their own issues and we have to [00:37:00] care and love one another because otherwise, otherwise, our world’s gonna go to go somewhere we don’t want it to.

So, I like Steve saying smile because I try to find humor in everything we do and that sometimes work and Steve will look, will, uh, vouch for the fact. Sometimes it doesn’t work, but I try. Thank you, Steve. 

Aubrey: This has been such a fun conversation. I mean, fun on vouchers, I mean, right. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge here today.

We’ve greatly appreciated you being a part of our show. Where can people find you if they want to learn more about you and what you do?

Steve: Well, you can reach. Okay, Michael, you go. 

Michael: You can reach me at Michael, do christopher@isminc.com. Or you can go on the ISM website and you can find me somewhere in there. Steve. 

Steve: I’m at St. Mary’s Episcopal Day School in Tampa, florida@seds.org. And then I’m gonna put in a shameless plug for Small Schools conference, uh, two plugs small schools conference that we’re excited [00:38:00] to present there next week with Aubrey, Tara and Company.

And also. Think about ISM program offerings. Uh, wonderful. Uh, we, we love teaching about everything from development to enrollment management, marketing, communication, and there’s summer institute. And then Michael and I will both be in Washington DC in late July for our annual advancement for the Academy, which is a, a wonderful week of time together.

And, uh, it would be great to see some friendly faces there. 

Tara: Great. And our neck of the woods. Yeah. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you.

This episode is brought to you by The Small School Leaders Conference happening online, February 3rd through sixth, discover Strategies to Help your school thrive. Learn more@smallschoolsconference.com. See you there. Thanks for joining us on the Mindful School Marketing Podcast. We’d love it if you pop into iTunes and leave a review.

Five Star Preferred. Let us know how you like the show. It helps us improve what we’re doing and helps [00:39:00] others find us too.