71. Leading During Uncertain Times with Ed Hollinger

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Tara: Welcome to Mindful School Marketing. I’m Tara Clays. And 

Aubrey: I’m Aubrey Bursch. Today we’re joined by Ed Hollinger. Ed is an educational leader and consultant specializing in transitional leadership, team development, and professional coaching. His work focuses on helping individuals and organizations discover and develop their best professional selves.

Welcome Ed. We’re so glad you’re on the podcast today. 

Ed: Well, thank you so much. Uh, it is an absolute delight to be here. Um, I have, uh, I, I’ve been a great admirer of the work that you both of you have done. And, uh, anytime I have a chance to chat with you, spend time with you, share some space with you. I am just delighted to do that.

So thank you so much for the invitation. It’s a pleasure to be here. Thank you. 

Tara: Likewise. We’re excited that you’re here. We really enjoyed chatting with you at the National Small Schools Conference. We met so many interesting, great people and colleagues there and hearing you speak about your leadership and especially during challenging times and what you’ve done during this time for schools.

Can you tell us more about yourself and as a starting point, though, and your journey in independent schools, what your 

Ed: background is? Sure, sure. I’d be happy to do that. Thanks. Um, I, my, my entire career since I graduated college, uh, I won’t say what year it’s been a long time ago. Um, just suffice it to say it’s been a while.

Um, I, I started out in education. I was given an opportunity to, um, uh, teach students at the middle school and high school level in the area of the social sciences, which is my field and what I was most interested in at the college level and, and still am. Um, so I did that. That for what has amounted to about the first third of my career.

And from there, I was given some opportunities to, uh, once I determined that school life is where I wanted to be, that was really my passion and where I felt most connected. Um, I was given the opportunity to, to move into more of the student services area. And, uh, I was a guidance counselor for a number of years.

moved into the area of college counseling, really enjoyed that work. Um, and from there, it kind of, uh, uh, merged into, uh, a full blown school leadership, I’ll call it. Not that you don’t do leadership at other levels, but my full time work became leading schools and eventually getting into some of the consulting and coaching work that I do now.

Uh, and that journey has taken me, um, I have worked in over 12 different schools, uh, in seven different states, um, and, and really just in the last 15 years or so, that journey has become much more itinerant where I do transitional leadership work for schools, um, typically being in an interim headship for one year, sometimes two years, sometimes even short term engagements if there’s kind of an emergency situation.

Um, so that’s, that’s been my career track. I’ve been doing it for a while and I have, over the years, I’ve come to define my work. Um, Aubrey, as you mentioned in, in that very kind introduction, um, creating a world of work with people at their best, that, that’s my mission. And what I hope to do is employ three basic strategies to help organizations and people do that.

It’s first of all, strength based. Strength based. Know and leverage your strengths, know what they are and use those on a daily basis. Secondly, it’s what I call strategic self awareness, know your weaknesses, know your vulnerabilities, know where those things are that will trip you up when you’re not paying attention or when you’re under stress, which we oftentimes are.

And the third is just the self management, take care of yourself. So we follow those three steps. Uh, I think we can collectively create a world of work where people are at their best. That’s what I hope to do with my, with, with the work that I’ve, uh, uh, been, been doing in recent years. 

Aubrey: That’s amazing. I think you have such an interest, like your journey fascinates me as well as your work, as we’ve discussed before, and I’m just fascinated by your work.

And I love that you’re really helping people be at their best in their, the positions that they are and, and in the communities that they’re a part of. Um, so, you know, it’s, Fascinating to me. Um, I really enjoyed chatting with you at the national small school conference. It was great to meet you in person.

Um, and I had the pleasure of attending your presentation, which was titled leading a small school in uncertain times, fostering resilience, building strength, minimizing turbulence. Um, so in your role and have you, as you described, you know, traditional leadership and everything like that. You often have to navigate uncertain and challenging situations, probably all the time.

Um, so I’m wondering, you know, thinking of our audience of all these amazing school leaders that we have listening, like, can you share some strategies that you’ve found helpful in these situations, including those, you know, you shared in the presentation that I had the pleasure of attending? 

Ed: Sure. Sure.

I’d be happy to. Um, I, before I get into the strategies, just let me just kind of set the context of, of, of what those strategy, how those strategies would be employed. Um, I, in that presentation, Aubrey, that you referenced, I talked about this notion of, uh, the VUCA environment, V U C A. And that’s a, uh, a term, it stands for volatility, uncertainty, chaos, and ambiguity.

That, that term, that acronym was first coined by the folks in the military a number of years ago in response to kind of a changing world order that came after the Second World War and into the Cold War and then with the collapse of the Soviet Union and so forth. And then a number, Warren Bennis and a couple other business consultants kind of grabbed hold of that term and said, well, this kind of describes our economic environment, our business environment.

How do we respond to volatility, uncertainty, chaos, and ambiguity? So, you know, I, I, I took those contexts and kind of said, well, you know, particularly in the, in the COVID world that we are actually still not out of, but I looked at it and said, well, doesn’t that, doesn’t VUCA kind of describe what our lives in schools have been like these last couple of years?

And I think it really does. When I look at not just COVID and all of the disruption of volatility that that caused, uh, you know, I, I look at our overall. Um, you know, you can point to our areas around political unrest that seem to, um, uh, affect how we do things, just the civil discord, the, the inability to have civil conversations anymore.

The, the attacks that we in independent schools, particularly are under with some of our initiatives around diversity and belonging, um. The economic uncertainty, the question about our long term viability, and, and just even maybe at, at, at kind of the personal core, a lack of center. You know, there’s a lot of research about how communities are fragmented, people aren’t surrounded by their communities of faith anymore.

And, and that lack of center leaves us in kind of this VUCA environment, as I call it. So. I think VUCA, even though it was first coined in a very different context, has many implications to the work we do and, and life in, in schools today. So the strategies around that, that I unpacked, uh, and this is based on my own anecdotal experience.

But also what the researchers are saying, there’s a lot of folks who have studied this, uh, and I’ve, I’ve tried to immerse myself in that. There’s some folks, um, over at the, um, University of Michigan, the Ross school of business, the center for positive organizations, doing a lot of work and how you can bring.

a positive anecdotes to the VUCA environment. Uh, I know the folks, um, at Hogan Assessments out in Tulsa, Oklahoma, do a lot of really good research and then apply some strategies, particularly the work I do in, in coaching, uh, where we can apply some of these, you know, what, what are the personality tendencies that would lead us to derail in the midst of this VUCA environment?

So what we’ve come up with is really, I, I, Just point out a couple of my own experiences and what the research says. And the one would be, the first off is the need for us to foster versatility. We all have our comfort style. We all have our aspects of our personality that lead to good leadership. And we leverage those strengths.

We know who we are. We know what we’re good at. But when we’re in a different context, oftentimes if there’s an over reliance on those strengths, or if there is Um, just, you know, I have to, I have to pivot to areas that are not in my comfort zone. How can I handle those? And the research would say foster versatility, learn how to deal with that ambiguity, anticipate the problems that may be coming up and be flexible.

Most of us in school leadership, you know, we’re good at organizing things. We’re good at scheduling things. We’re good at running the school, making it run smoothly. And then COVID hits and we have to. Revamp all of that on a very quick notice that leads us to this Ambiguity and, um, um, and very difficult problems that maybe we’re not equipped to handle, but we need to rely on strengths that we didn’t know we had.

So it’s that, I’ll call it versatility. So step number one, foster versatility. The second is to leverage our strengths. And what I mean by that is not an over reliance on what we’re really good at, but I like to call it finding our equilibrium. We all have particular styles that we’re geared toward and hopefully those leadership styles are good fits with what our organization needs, but at the same time, we need to lean into those things that are harder for us to do.

Some of us are really good at we would, uh, the Hogan folks would say you are, uh, you might be a people leader. And if I, if I’m kind of geared toward those interpersonal relationships, sometimes I let the more strategic kinds of things go untapped. And in a VUCA environment, I really need to rely on that.

I need to stretch myself and say, how can I leave some of those, you know, uh, the style that I’m comfortable with? How can I come over into a style that I might have to work a little bit harder at? So that’s what I mean by leveraging our strengths. But also part of that fostering versatility. The other is just the self care.

That’s the third one that I like to talk about. Um, uh, creating time in your day to reflect, creating time in your day to connect with other people. Um, I have the good fortune every Monday afternoon at two o’clock central time. Uh, a group of heads from the, uh, Chicago area where I’m working right now. We all get together.

And, and we share stories, we share problems, we share projects that we’re working on that we want ideas on, and it’s just this wonderful, safe place to come together, and it’s really important to create those networks. That’s part of the self care. And then I think it in response to VUCA, that V U C A, an acronym, I, and I can talk a little bit more about this later, but, um, one of the strategies I think is to shift that conversation.

I like to use those four terms, which, which are negative in their context and say, how can we turn that into a positive? And, and somebody came up with, with, with, with a way of doing that. And I’m borrowing from the work that they’ve done. They say, take volatility and turn it into vision. Take uncertainty, turn it into understanding, take chaos, turn it into clarity, take ambiguity and turn it into agility.

Vision is the, what understanding is the, why clarity is the, who agility is the, how let’s flip that conversation and rely on take VUCA and turn it into a strength opportunity for us. So fostering versatility, leveraging our strengths, self care, shifting the conversations. Those are. Four strategies that I think we can employ to get us through the VUCA environment, the challenging times that we’re all living in.

That’s really helpful. I apologize if that was too long an answer for you, but that’s, uh, that’s how I like to frame 

Tara: it. No, I’m so glad you went on because when you started, I was starting to get really depressed and feel hopeless and then you kind of flipped it around on how to handle it. So I think that it’s really important to, you know, to think about those strategies.

You know, we do have a lot of. A lot of heavy things happening in the world today and schools have 

Ed: a lot of that same frame. Yeah, that same framework fits into a lot of the mindfulness work that you all do. And I think we’ll probably talk about that as well. Yeah, for 

Tara: sure. For sure. Yeah, I really appreciate that.

So if we take this, you know, this, uh, idea and in the world of schools where shifts in leadership, um, and in positions, as we know, happen frequently, um, what advice would you give to school professionals specifically as they’re embarking on a new role, especially if it’s not an ideal situation to start out?

Ed: Yeah, Tara, I love, love that question. And it, it really, um, uh, again, um, I’m going to take the complexity around that and try to create some clarity around it. Okay. Um, there, there, there’s a model. I, I, I just, I started working on this, uh, uh, pretty much this year and did, did a little bit of deep dive in the little bit of time I had over the summer.

And, and I, I, um, yeah. I, I, I, I’m a huge fan of, uh, the, the 19th century Danish existential philosopher Soren Kierkegaard. And he coined this term, a leap of faith. And he talks about sort of, you know, faith as the unknown, that world of ambiguity. And to create clarity, sometimes we’re taking a leap into the unknown.

I, I, I love that model. I love that imagery. Because it’s not without hope, but it’s like, okay, how, how can I take this leap, even though I’m not quite sure where I’m going to land? And I think that, that imagery is true for a lot of us in school leadership. We are taking a leap of faith. I’ll say more about that in a minute.

But anyway, I took that word leap, L E A P, and I think it’s the The, the, the perfect segue into here’s what good leaders do, particularly when you’re coming into difficult situations when you’re coming into new situations, maybe you’re a first time head of school, maybe you’re a season ahead of school, but you’ve inherited, you know, a real challenge.

The L and leap I say is listening. People sometimes ask me when I come into new school, what are you going to do in the first hundred days? And I tell them, well, after a hundred days, I’m a third of the way through the school year. So let’s, let’s back that up and make it the first 30 days. Um, I go on a listening tour.

I engage people and listen 10 times more than I talk. I will ask them probing questions and deep questions. What brought you here? What keeps you here? What gives life and meaning to the work? What’s so special about this place that would be missed if it were to go away? And then I step back and just listen to their responses.

You, you get the energy and, and the goodness that comes out of the organization, but you also feel the points of pain. And you lean into that after you’ve built the trust. That only comes about with listening. I, I made this mistake in my early days of leadership where I came in thinking, you know, I’ve got lots of experience.

I got lots of ideas. Here’s what we’re going to do. And I didn’t take the time to listen. And it didn’t go very well. So I’ve learned the hard way. Do your listening tour. That’s the L in LEAP. The E is equilibrium, and I referred to this earlier in my comments, of finding your style, finding the Hogan folks, and I really like their imagery, they talk about the dimensions of leadership.

You know, the, the, the kind of a continuum between a thought leader and a task oriented leader. They continue in between. People and processes, the continuum between the social skills and the importance of data and, and the analytical kinds of skills. And most of us have a comfort zone. The equilibrium is finding where you are on that continuum.

What’s your comfort zone? What are your strengths? But then how easily or how difficult is it for you to leverage the other side of that continuum that you really need to, to be, to find your equilibrium and be able to respond in a, to the versatility that I talked about in the, in, uh, previously. So E is for equilibrium, finding, finding that space.

The A in LEAP is authenticity. Be yourself. Build the trust. Lead with humility. Um, be yourself. Confident yet vulnerable. You know, your ego sometimes can get in the way in leadership. Check that at the door. Be humble. Let people know your vulnerability. Let people know what, you know, where, hey, I’m really working on this.

Help me. It’s okay to do that. Um, so authenticity, I think is really important for leaders. Um, our, our teachers, our parents, especially our kids will be able to see right through that. If we’re not authentic, our kids will be the first to point that out to us. They can spot that in a heartbeat. Uh, and, and they do, and they’ll let you know.

Uh, and the P in leap, I refer to two words, pace, yeah. and purpose. The pace at which we do leadership, the pace that we bring to the work in schools is so important. Keep in mind, change is incredibly hard for people. And sometimes, particularly if you’re a new leader, you represent change. You represent the unknown.

That unknown creates a sense of fear. People are not at their best when they’re dwelling in that fear. People will not be rational. When they’re living in fear, calm the waters, build the trust, but pace the change that you want to employ. You got to build the trust first or any change that you want to do is going to be really, really difficult.

And then the second P is purpose. I like the notion of put forth by Robert Quinn. I mentioned the good work that the folks over at the Ross School of Business are doing in the Center for Positive Organization. Robert Quinn talks about… Let’s instead of problem solving, let’s focus on purpose finding and I really like that framework.

I can sit all day and admire the problems and figure out strategies and solutions and they have their place. But if I don’t focus on what our purpose is, I’m not going to be solving the right problems or I’m going to be solving them in an inappropriate way, in an ineffective way. So purpose finding over problem solving.

Part of the pace of change, but first we have to find our purpose. That’s, that’s a great word that I rely on to say, you know, what, what, what are your, what, what are your four points of advice for new leaders? Leap. It’s a leap of faith. Listen, find your equilibrium, be authentic, find your pace and purpose.

And I’m so 

Aubrey: grateful that you shared these steps, the leap, because, um, I know that there are so many school leaders starting new positions and heading into these situations and you gave them some real actionable items, right? The listening piece. I can remember I, too, made the mistake. My first, you know, leadership position coming in and being like, hey, let’s change this.

Let’s, you know, do this. But I should have, and I learned. Listen, right? Listen to people, understand them and help you understand who they are, the culture, the challenges ahead of you, um, so that you can make better decisions when the time comes. So thank you for sharing those, Ed. Um, I think our audience will find them very helpful.

I hope so. I’m curious. So, you know, Tara and I are really into marketing as long as you 

Ed: do it. Well, 

Aubrey: so, um, I’m curious, putting on our marketing lens, um, how can like these strategies that we talked about, uh, really indirectly or directly impact internal and external marketing efforts. And what I mean by that is retention and enrollment.

I’d love to hear your thoughts on this. 

Ed: Well, um, yeah, I, I, I really think there, um, is, um, you know, when, when I talked about that, uh, moving from the VUCA environment and, and pivoting, changing that narrative in, into a more positive framework, to me, I think that’s the essence of your good marketing. Um, You know, if it’s a given, we’re in the VUCA world in the negative sense.

There’s lots of volatility, ambiguity, um, and chaos and so forth. Um, I think it’s really important, more important now than ever, that we take that volatility and turn it into to vision. And as leaders… As all members of the school, but particularly our leaders, we have to be out in front of this. You know, how do, I mean, the practical question is, how do we take time in our daily routines to take a look at that big long term picture and always be focusing on that vision?

In a time of volatility, parents are shopping for a school. They want to find a school with vision. And if you can articulate that, you’ve just put to rest any volatility that they might be experiencing around this decision, um, creating understanding. Um, how can we be more effective at communicating the why of what we do?

I think it’s really important for leaders to do that, not just for their own students and their own constituents, but potential families coming to us. They really need to hear the why from us. They need that understanding, uh, of, of who we are and what we do. And then the issue of clarity, taking the chaos and moving it to clarity.

Um, As a leader, ask yourself, am I, am I presenting myself in a way that brings calm amidst the chaos? That’s really important to do. It’s not that you ignore the chaos. You need to lean into that, but lean into it in a way that instills confidence, that brings calm, that sense of, okay, there’s turbulence, but you know what?

We’re in for a smooth landing. We will get through this. And then the final, the agility, taking that ambiguity and turn it to agility. You know, ask ourselves the question, am I managing the pace of change needed to get to a better place? Again, the adage. Too much change too quickly will add to that chaos and confusion.

So manage that in a way, in an agile kind of way that will, will get you through the turbulence. All of that I think are very good marketing skills. So I think you can flip that language of VUCA onto the positive framework and, and there’s a good marketing strategy right there, I think. Yeah, all 

Tara: of these acronyms.

I’m hoping that after, that we can get some, um, show notes from you afterward to put in our show notes with all of 

Ed: this, because… You just need to remember two words, VUCA and LEAP, and you got it. But just remember what the letters stand for. But yeah, I’ll be glad to share that with you. Yeah, I 

Tara: mean, I think it’s important, right, as a leader that, you know, that you’re setting the tone for the culture of the school and that can, that can really impact the impression, um, and the feeling of the school, both for the prospective families and the current families, you know, that, that, that that’s really important too.

So I appreciate all that you’ve shared. Yeah. Um, I’m going to talk about mindfulness and, you know, some of the things that you mentioned in the beginning and those strategies really referenced, um, you know, the idea of mindfulness, um, as well. But in our podcast, we talk about mindfulness and how it applies to school leaders.

And how do you define mindfulness and, and how do you live it out in your role with schools? 

Ed: I, uh, Tara, I love that question. And, um, time doesn’t permit us here to go all the different tangents I could go on that. So I’ll, I’ll, I’ll try to really focus, which is. Part of mindfulness. Um, I, I, I would, uh, I, I would kind of articulate three areas of mindfulness, routines, focus and reflection.

I don’t have an acronym for that. So we’ll just have to remember those three words. Uh, give me time and I’ll work on it. So routines, focus, reflection. I think it’s really important. Um, you know, the, the, the routines, uh, and, and what I, Okay. I’m not implying we live rigid lives. You know, when I said about we have to, um, um, foster that sense of being able to pivot at a moment’s notice, um, that, that sometimes our routines get in the way.

But I think it is important to be very intentional about certain routines that can, can bring about a calmness and a centering to the work that you do. I’ll

One of our wonderful teachers here at the school I’m working at right now, the Science and Arts Academy right outside of Chicago. Um, she’s a yoga instructor and every Thursday morning she invites members of the faculty. Anybody who wants to come. She calls it our breathing time. I went to it the first time this morning.

It’s 15 minutes. It’s not yoga, but it’s just getting into a comfortable position. She walks through some mindful kinds of thoughts that help us center, helps us get rid of the clutter and chaos. Helps me just push aside all of the checklist of things that I have to do today and just center myself. What a wonderful gift.

I, I’m a firm believer in just embracing routines like that. And I, I, I told her afterwards, I said, I’m going to put on my calendar for every Thursday morning at eight o’clock, big and bold, breathe. I need to take time to do that. Um, I try to at the end of the day, uh, if any, if you’ve read any of the work of, um, Harry Kramer, um, who, who was a CEO for years and now is a professor at, uh, Northwestern University and, and really takes, you know, his, his work in business consultation and really brings a reflection piece into it.

He, he talks often about the need for reflection. He says at the end of the day, I call it my sunset time. I, I have the good fortune of living in an apartment outside of Chicago that has a view to the West. And I try every night to carve out, okay, when is the sun setting? I want to be home sitting on my porch, even if it’s just 10 minutes to watch that sun go down.

It’s centering, it’s calming. It puts me in that framework of, you know what, this universe has been going on for a long time. This system’s been in place for, I don’t know what, four and a half billion years or whatever, and I’m given a thin slice of that to experience that. That helps center me, might make me feel insignificant.

It, it, it, it, it, I feel like a small speck in this whole thing, but there’s meaning and purpose to what I do. Watching a sunset, to me, connects me with that. I try to make that part of my routine. I can’t do it every day. Some days it’s a cloudy day. It doesn’t matter, whatever the universe brings you, take time to watch those passages of time, make that, I make that part of my routine, and I really find that to be helpful.

Uh, the second thing I talked about is focus, again, You know, moving the clutter and chaos and confusion out of the way and bringing the focus, our routines can help us with that. I think the reflection piece too, uh, you know, I love, uh, Harry Kramer’s, uh, mantra of at the end of the day, ask yourself, what did you do?

Well, what went well, what didn’t go well and how am I going to do it differently? And if I am given tomorrow, how am I going to do it? How am I going to do it differently? Um, those little nuggets of, of, of wisdom. Um, I think it’s important to, to, to hold, uh, hold on to. If I can go back for a moment here in conclusion to, uh, uh, to, to Soren Kierkegaard, who talks about this leap of faith and that notion, and, and he, he kind of clarified, he says leap of faith, yes, but only after reflection.

I think the reflection piece brings the meaning and purpose to those leaps of faith that we’re in, in this crazy work of school leadership. 

Aubrey: And that was so powerful. And I think a lot of our school leaders can relate to, to, to needing to bring these elements into their day. If they’re not already. I know when I do these things in my day, I’m a far better, you know, a business person, a far better, you know, steward of the work that I’m doing and a better parent, right.

And a better, 

Ed: so we’re at our best 

Aubrey: selves. So thank you for sharing this now. Excited for, because I enjoy talking to you all the time. I’m excited to head into the rapid fire questions of our favorites. So it’s the questions we ask all our guests. Um, so I want to kick us off. If you could put one book as mandatory reading in the high school curriculum, what would it be?

Ed: I would require all students. Before their senior year to read Frank Bruni’s, where you go is not who you will be. Frank does a fantastic job of confronting that talk about chaos and confusion around the college admission process and the angst and anxiety we put our students through. It’s, it’s unfortunate.

And Frank does a really nice job to help students, help parents work through this process. Yes, it’s an important decision, but it’s not a determinant of what your life is going to be. Where you go is not who you will be. Great read, easy read, but some really good nuggets of wisdom by Frank Bruni. 

Tara: That’s awesome.

Thank you for sharing. Okay, our next rapid fire question is what is one app you could not live 

Ed: without? I have never been asked that question before, but as one who tries to be as low tech as I can, managing tech just so I can get by in this world. I, I would have to say, and then this is totally not related to work, but I, I have, since I was a kid, I’ve been a big baseball fan, you know, the kind of kid who would pick up the paper every morning, turn to the sports page as I’m eating my bowl of cereal, find out who won, who lost the stats and everything.

I’ve got an MLB app on my phone that I absolutely love. I can check standings. I can check scores. I can check. You know, how the Cubs are doing or not. Um, I love that. And, and there’s even a factor in there where I can actually listen to games, any game in the major league. That is, that’s a world that I didn’t think would ever exist when I was a kid growing up.

And I find that fascinating. Um, it. I, I know this is rapid fire, but if I could just do, do two quick outtakes on that. Um, there, there’s a book that I read a couple of years ago, uh, by Mark, um, Clingwell called Fail Better, subtitled Why Baseball Matters. And it’s, it’s part poetry, it’s part essay, it’s part philosophy.

And it’s like, he says, in the world of baseball, and this is maybe why I like the game so much, you know, success. Means you failed three out of, uh, you failed seven out of ten times. A good batting average is 300. That means you’re not getting on base seven out of the ten times you come to the plate. But there’s meaning and purpose behind those times you don’t get on base.

It’s okay to fail. It’s okay to learn from that. If we’re not learning from it, if it’s not part of our strategy, we’re missing something. And, and Mark puts that just into a lovely, um, poetic perspective. Um, fail better. Good, good read, uh, out for maybe a couple years now. I think it was 2016, 2017. Speaking of apps.

I try to be very intentional about not being so connected all the time to my device. I’ve, I’ve been influenced a lot by the work of Sherry Turkle, um, who, uh, her book’s Reclaiming Conversation and Alone Together. Um, she cautions of, of the, the addiction that we have to our devices. So I try not to be addicted to my MLB app, but boy, sometimes it’s hard.

Um, uh, she said, she coined the phrase connected but not present. I’ve got to watch myself. I got to be mindful about not being so addicted to my device that I lose that connection. I need to find a way, as Sherry would say, to stay connected, but be present. That’s amazing. And great question. Sorry for the long rambling answer, but, uh, I love the phone.

My MLB app is really important to me, but not too important. 

Aubrey: I love it. And I don’t think we’ve ever had anyone answer with the MLB app. So I feel like you win the prize for that. Good. Well, 

Ed: I’m not into it to win the prize. I’m just being my authentic self. 

Aubrey: I love it. I love it. Um, Okay. So, I mean, clearly you’ve mentioned many books already, all of which you were frantically writing down and we’ll add to our book list, of course.

Um, we have a book, we have a good reads list. Um, but what are you reading right now? 

Ed: Yeah, I’m, I’m, uh, two chapters away from finishing. I, I, I have been fascinated by this. It’s a book entitled American Ramble written by Neal King Jr. Uh, Neal King is a retired writer for, I believe it’s the Wall Street Journal.

May have been the New York Times, I’m not sure, but it has written for some, you know, the Atlantic and some other, um, uh, key journals. And during the pandemic, this goes back to, I think the, uh, 2020, the spring of 2021, I think it is, is when he did this. Um, he, he had his own personal health scare. He was in the mid, talk about living and writing as a career in a VUCA environment.

He was a correspondent in Washington, D. C. where he’s lived for, for some time. It just had this moment of I’ve got to get perspective on all this craziness that’s going on. He set out to walk from Washington D. C. to New York City in the spring of COVID. And what he wanted to accomplish was I want to, I want to connect with people.

I want to find out. You know, is this really such a divided world that we live in, where, you know, I’m on this side, you’re on that side, and we can’t talk to each other. That’s not a world he wants to live in. I don’t think that’s a world any of us wants to live in. So he went on this journey, this walk, with the intentionality of encountering people just in their everyday lives.

Fascinating read. Uh, I love the stories. He, he talks about the history of the places he’s gone. I, you know, I reference I grew up in south central Pennsylvania. I, you know, he talks about his journeys. I know, I know that place. I used to walk across that bridge. I know what you’re talking about. Fascinating read, really enjoyable for me.

I connect in a very personal way, but it’s really a profound look at how do we want to be? How do we, how, how can we bridge this divide? Um, you know, how, how can we have good discourse without demonizing each other? He has some really good insights. He discovers some of the people who he most vehemently disagreed with were some of the most hospitable people to him.

Changes his whole perspective. Really good read. Neil King, American Ramble. 

Tara: Thank you. Thank you. Well, Ed, we are out of time. We’re so glad that you were able to join us. Where can people find you, uh, online? 

Ed: People can find me. I don’t have a real strong, unlike you all who do the social media incredibly well, and I need to learn from you better.

Uh, I am on Facebook, but I don’t do much with it. LinkedIn is probably the best way. Just put in my name. Um, I, I operate under Hollinger Group Consulting. Um, and, um, The writing that I do, some of the essays that I do, I have people on my listserv that I push that out to, but I do the same thing on LinkedIn.

So that’s probably the best way to get in touch with me. Website, uh, I can share with you. It’s, uh, hollingergroupconsulting. com. Um, you can find me on there and find ways to connect with me on there as well. I even have one of those handy schedulers. You can schedule a time to chat with me on that. 

Tara: So thank you.

Awesome. Thank you 

Aubrey: very much. It’s been so fun chatting with you, Ed. Thank you for sharing these amazing strategies with our audience and with us. Yes. Thank you 

Ed: for the opportunity. I appreciate it very much. Thank you all. Take care. Be well. Keep the faith. All right. Take care. Bye.