58. Embracing Perfectionism with Katherine Morgan Schafler

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Aubrey: Today we’re joined by Katherine Morgan Scheffler. Katherine is a New York City-based psychotherapist, author and speaker, formerly onsite at Google. She’s the author of the new book, the Perfectionist Guide to Losing Control, A Path to Peace and Power. Welcome, Katherine.

We’re so excited for this conversation.

Katherine: I can’t wait. Thank you so much for having me. I’m thrilled to be here and

Aubrey: we’re so happy to have you with us today. Um, this is gonna be a great topic. Now, before we dive in, can you just tell us a little bit more about yourself, your book and, um, how you came to this topic of perfectionism?

Katherine: Yes, so the book is The Perfectionist Guide to Losing Control, and it’s really the result of years of my clinical work as a therapist across multiple different clinical contexts. So I used to have a practice. Downtown here in New York City on Wall Street, I saw a lot of women in big law and finance and all the attendant pressure and ambition associated with those fields.

I used to work at a rehab in Brooklyn. I used to work in residential treatment with young kids in Los Angeles who were. In the foster care system and then had become more to the state. Um, I’ve obviously worked in private practice myself and in all these spaces, perfectionism existed and that surprised me because I thought of perfectionism in this really narrow way as associated with high achievers and.

Um, associated with achievements that are more traditional in nature, like academic achievements, for example. And I discovered that it is so much more than that and that it can be interpersonal or emotional, um, and, and just unfurls in so many different ways. So that’s, Why I wrote the book. I’m

Tara: glad to have you here because I know this is a popular topic and what an interesting, um, bio and exper range of experiences that you’ve had to bring to this topic.

Um, we had an Enneagram expert on our show a while ago, and I love the Enneagram SHA box. Um, had. Send the Enneagram typing for me and for my husband a few years ago. Mm-hmm. Over Covid. And I learned that I was a type one, which is referred to as the perfectionist, um, in Enneagram, if you know about Enneagram.

So I think a lot about this term, like, oh, I think a lot of people, especially a lot of women do, and you talk about this in your book, but while, um, When that term is applied, it’s usually not something that is looked upon as a positive personality trait. And you talk about this a lot, how we’re sort of taught to tame perfectionism and um, and how it’s something to control or get rid of.

But your book, what I love about it is it really talks about flipping that and talking about it as something positive and using it. To your advantage. So can you talk about that? But let’s start, actually, let’s start with the different types of perfectionism that you describe in your book and how all of those have their positive

Katherine: sides.

Yes. So just as you said, every um, personality type that is associated with perfectionism has its advantages and liabilities. There are five, I’ll start with the classic, which is I think the type that we most associate with when we think about. Perfectionists. So classic perfectionists are very buttoned up.

They’re predictable. They easily add structure into any situation that they’re in. And they’re just highly reliable people. They do what they say they’re gonna do when they say they’re gonna do it in the way that they said that they would do it. And so those are all incredible strengths. And on the.

Disadvantages side. Sometimes classic perfectionists can feel taken for granted because they are the one that everyone knows is going to do it, and they may enjoy being the one that does it. But just because you enjoy something A doesn’t mean that it’s easy and doesn’t require a lot of energy and work.

And B doesn’t mean that you don’t want acknowledgement for that thing. Right. Um, and also, They don’t necessarily work in a way that engenders collaboration, right? A classic perfectionist is like, well, I want this done really right, so I’m just gonna do it myself. And so sometimes those things that create high quality connections, um, they don’t necessarily carve out the opportunities for those themselves, and they could struggle interpersonally for those reasons.

The next is a procrastinator perfectionist, and the easiest way to explain this is procrastinator. Perfectionists want the conditions to be perfect before they start. So on the pro side, this type of perfectionist is so thoughtful. They’re wonderful at preparing. They can see a situation from a 360 degree angle and map out a ton of different contingencies and what you might do should those things unfold.

But on the cons side, their preparative measures can spill past the point of diminishing returns and just. Paralyze them such that they’re preparing and preparing and preparing and they never actually execute on the thing they’re trying to do. And what was so interesting to me is that this tendency to wait until the conditions are perfect aren’t, isn’t just.

For, you know, procrastinating against aversive, things like maybe doing your taxes or something, but also for things you’re really excited about, like going on a trip or, you know, telling someone how you feel about them or something like that. The counterpart to a procrastinated perfectionist is the messy perfectionist and messy perfectionists want the middle.

To be as perfect as it felt in the beginning, right? So whereas procrastinated perfectionists really wish that things could be perfect before they start. A messy perfectionist does experience perfection in the start, and they love the start. I like to say their start happy so they can effortlessly push through the anxiety of a new beginning and.

They bring so much natural enthusiasm and energy to whatever they’re doing. Their superstar idea generators, they can just see all kinds of different opportunities all around them on the con side, because they’re so excited and because they’re so creative, they can end up saying yes to a million things and actually committing to nothing because to commit to something you really have to say no to.

90% of the other stuff. And so what this looks like is messy perfectionists getting to the middle of the process when there’s a natural tedium, when it’s no longer exciting or romanticized or as perfect as it was in the beginning, and then feeling like, oh, I don’t like this anymore. Or, I don’t know how to be in this.

This isn’t perfect. And kind of if you’re not managing that perfectionism, running away from it, and you know it can be. Really damaging in ways that aren’t obvious because that pattern of start, stop creates a narrative in your mind of, well, I must just not be disciplined. I must not care enough. People just don’t take me seriously.

I must not be smart enough, whatever it is. All of that is, is untrue. It’s just in your head. Um, messy perfectionists just need more help and support in the middle. Procrastinated perfectionists need more help and support in the beginning. Intense perfectionists want the end of the process to be perfect, so their hyper fixated on the outcome.

And this is a great advantage because they can, they have razor sharp focus. So they are going to get the job done, and they don’t necessarily care about whether other people like them or not. And so they have this ability to just be effortlessly direct. They’re not in a, like politeness contest. Like, like so many people who are concerned with people g pleasing are, um, and, and they’re really efficient and those are all wonderful qualities.

But on the con side, I. Intense perfectionists can sometimes prize the outcome so much that they get to it by burning themselves out or burning their teams out, or burning their families out or whatever context they find themselves in. And at the end of it, it’s like, great, you achieved the goal. You, you know, you met your QT goals, but now everyone on your team’s gonna quit.

Because they are miserable working for you, because, you know, intense perfectionists can bring their standards from high to impossible and then impose those standards on others and be very punitive about it too. So then there’s the Parisian perfectionist. This perfectionism is really interesting because it plays out interpersonally in relationships, and so perfectionists are always chasing an ideal.

And the ideal that Parisian perfectionists want is ideal connection. And so the easiest way to describe this type is they want to be perfectly liked. They want everyone to like them, and they also want. To perfectly like others, right? So they’re looking for ideal connection, which doesn’t have very much to do with likability, but because they sometimes want to take a shortcut to connection, they can engage in people pleasing to a point that becomes toxic.

And so not only have they not connected to the people around them, now they’ve disconnected from themselves. But you know, on the pro side we’re talking about. Naturally warm, empathic people who you do not have to explain the importance of relationships too. They just get it. They just know, which is so wonderful.

Um, I think I covered them all.

Tara: Yes, I think you did too. And Aubrey and I both took the quiz that you have in your book. Mm-hmm. Uh, and I’ll share that I am a, uh, mix of classic and Parisian, um, as my top two, uh, was a very close third there with messy, but I totally, I, when you describe them, I think everybody who’s listening to this, even without taking the quiz, can probably get an idea of where they, where they fall into, uh, in, in that, in those five different types.

Katherine: Aubrey, how about you?

Aubrey: Yeah. So, um, I identify with all these just a little bit. Um, but when I took the quiz, I was, the majority of me was messy, perfectionist. Um, and I definitely see that, and it was so interesting when you were talking, I’m like, that’s why I have such a strong, supportive staff with me, because that middle piece of like delegation, keeping the energy flowing and stuff like that, I was like, yeah, no wonder I’ve, I’ve kind of already realized that about myself and, and tried to figure out how to.

To handle that and work through it. I, I just wish I knew all this like 10 years ago because it would’ve been so helpful for, I think, understanding ourselves and not seeing it as a negative, but understanding the pros and the cons and then making sure you feel supported, um, so you can move on with your life in all different aspects, um, and, and not see it as a negative.

Katherine: Yes, and I think, first of all, let me just say there are a lot of things I wish I knew 10 years ago, but secondly, I think what you’re experiencing is what a lot of people experience when they encounter these types, which is that we are all a little bit of everything. You know, perfectionism operates on a continuum, as does any identity structure, and perfectionism is also very fluid.

So you could be an intense perfectionist at work and then come home to a house that looks like it just got ransacked, you know? And so they’re context dependent. As is all mental health. Mental health is way more fluid and context dependent than we currently understand it to be. That makes

Aubrey: perfect sense.

I love the fluidity. Um. I’d like to ask you kind of like you advise your reader readers to stop trying to kind of fix themselves and you kind of hinted at this and kind of cure their perfectionism mm-hmm. And find that balance that we all talk about in life. Um, I love how you say perfection.

Perfectionism is a phenomenon, not a disorder. Can you share some tips for helping us reframe perfectionism as an asset and avoiding the pressure to find balance?

Katherine: Yes. So I would split that up into two things. The first is really understanding that you can’t talk about perfectionism without talking about the perfectionist.

So perfectionism itself and, and perfectionist as an identity construct is, Something that we hold very personally. It’s like calling yourself a romantic or an activist or an artist. You know, people who identify as perfectionists and the research confirms this. Identify with that for their. Entire lives.

So it’s what’s called an enduring identity marker. And that is unlike something like depression, right? We talk about depression, episodically, we say, after college I went through a depression. We do not say after college, I went through perfectionism. We say I’m a perfectionist. And so whenever you take anything about your identity and make it bad and make it something you need to get rid of and chip away at until you can be good.

You are doing the opposite of healing. You know, if you think about it this way, the first time perfectionism was introduced in psychological literature was by this guy, Dr. Alfred Adler. And everyone knows Adler already because he’s the guy who coined the term inferiority complex. And Adler talked about perfectionism in this beautiful way that I love.

And he said that perfectionism is just in natural, innate human impulse. And he called it the eternal melody we all hear. And he was a socialist and he thought that. The reason that we feel actively compelled to advance ourselves and the people around us is because we understand in our minds that our society can function in a much better way.

And he viewed mental health through the lens of connection, and so he thought perfectionism existed to help us all continue to push towards 100% societal perfection, where everybody. Is clean, clothed, safe, you know, free fed, loved, um, and he acknowledged that’s not possible. But that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try to do it.

And that’s what I think of when I think of the impulse of perfectionism. I think everyone’s got a little bit of it in them, and it exists because we have this cognitive capacity that is unique to our species, where we can understand the reality in our labs, but then also imagine it being a different way.

A better way in which we’re taking care of each other differently and better. And um, you know, I think I use the example, if you’re trying to eradicate world hunger and you go from eradicating 50% of it to 95% of it, you are still gonna work as hard to bridge that last 5% as you did when you were at 50, as you should.

And you’re never gonna get to 100 and you’re not gonna care. And that’s like perfectionist energy. I love

Tara: that. I also am, I’m excited to hear you mention Adler because I haven’t been familiar with him until I read a book that one of our guests recommended, which is called The Courage to Be Disliked, and it’s based on Adlerian psychology and sort of this, I, it’s a very empowering, uh, view of, of approaching.

Um, your goals and, and how you want to be in the world. So, um, I love to hear that it’s also related and aligned to this idea of perfectionism. Kind of comes full, full, full circle for me. Um,

Katherine: yes, my editor, uh, my editor, the incredible Nikki Papadopoulos, who is, God, she’s so amazing because she has heard me talk about Adler just so I, I just.

I can’t even believe how much she has had to listen to me talking about this person who I’m obsessed with. She sent me that book. Yeah. Or told me to read it. One of, one of the two. Um, and it’s fabulous. I

Tara: love it. It is. Yeah. I listened to the audio book. It’s very interesting cuz it’s a, basically a conversation.

Right. Um, and, uh, Between these philosophers, but it’s, uh, I, I want to read it again and again because there are so many little tidbits in it. Just like your book, actually, I found myself just thankfully I was reading it on a Kindle and I was just highlighting away so I can go back and, and review all those notes.

Uh, and something else that you talk about, um, is saying no, which can be very hard for perfectionists to do. And actually, I heard you on a podcast and you talked about this, and it actually prompted me to say no to something that I. Knew wasn’t a right fit for me, but I felt bad about it. And so you talk about sort of how, um, saying no, um, is also related to resentment.

And I find also sometimes we take on things we don’t necessarily want to do, but when we were afraid to say no, and then we end up feeling really resentful about that. So I wonder if you can talk a little bit about this idea and how it relates to perfectionism and how you talk about it in your

Katherine: book.

Right. Well, you can’t be a perfectionist without being an ambitious person. In ambitious people see opportunities all around them, and when you see an opportunity and you are engaged by it in some way, you want to say yes. It’s hard to say no. Um, it’s also hard to say no even if you don’t wanna do the opportunity because perhaps the person who’s asking you is an, a really important person in your life.

Or you can a, you can very clearly see that they need whatever they’re asking you to offer, even though it would create, um, stress for you to the point of breeding resentment. And so saying no is really tough. And we talk about saying no. Sometimes in a superficial way as if it immediately grants you a sense of empowerment and, and as if it’s, you know, easy to do in real time and like no is a full sentence.

But you know when your friend or parent or someone comes up to you and they asks you, they ask you for something, if you just say, no. You know, nobody does that, and I wouldn’t recommend people doing that. Right. But what saying no does is it safeguards you against resentment. And resentment is a really dense energy.

When you are resentful you, it’s like you, you’re the, it’s like you fade out from a 3D person to a 2D person, to a one D person. You’re not able to offer the people around you and perhaps more importantly yourself, the full landscape of who you are, your sense of humor. Gets muted out and watered down your sense of curiosity, your sensuality, like all the things that help you feel alive and good, get eclipsed by that dark cloud of resentment and that the resentment is there to deliver the knowledge that you are doing too much that you don’t wanna do.

Right? And so, We don’t just naturally have insights peer in our mind, they come kind of in a capsule, often around feelings that are hard to ignore and they’re hard to ignore because they’re painful. And so resentment serves us this, um, it is the delivery mechanism for something that you haven’t been paying attention to in other ways.

And the pain doesn’t go away until you acknowledge it and you. Approach with a different strategy. I love

Aubrey: this. I, I saying no is one of the hardest things to do and I appreciate you talking about, talking about that and empowering us to think about it and not just, um, you know, it’s just so much more important.

Um, so I appreciate you identifying that and sharing that with our audience. Cuz I think as school leaders it’s really easy to say yes. Um, to everything. Um, and that does not leave it, that does not, um, lead to good things in the end. Um, so thank you. I appreciate your talking about that. I’m curious, um, as you know, our audience is, is independent school leaders and many of them, you know, are working directly with the students and also have children of their own.

So we’ve seen a tremendous, you know, the tremendous mental health challenges that are currently happening in schools right now, especially in teenage girls and college students as school leaders. Um, how can we support these young adults? I mean, is this something you’re seeing as well? Um, and especially around this perfectionism piece, uh, because I do think that might, that that does impact.

Um, that age group, um, and it’s something that as school leaders we’re, we’re watching and so what tools might, might we give these

Katherine: young adults? It’s a great question and I think we would all do well to remember or realize that the greatest predictor of mental health is your relational wealth, right?

This term, that psychiatrist, Dr. Bruce Perry. Uses to describe the quality of the relationships in our lives. And so, you know, it’s wonderful to equip young people with tools and language and resources. What they need most is. Empathy and someone to listen to, and someone to hold what they’re feeling and thinking without judgment and without bu a bombardment of solution.

You know, it’s like healing is not an informational issue. It’s an issue of connection. Like we don’t feel bad because we haven’t solved the problem yet. We feel bad because we’re alone in the problem. And so the isolation piece is a huge component. That can kind of dismantle how overwhelming it is to be.

You know, I’m thinking back to my social work days of working in a system where you’re supposed to write notes all the time for the state, and these parents are contacting you and the administration has its own way of doing things and you’re just pulled in so many different directions. And just bringing it back to how can I offer quality connections?

What are the programs that. Index on relationships because those are the pieces that are going to create the most resilience and the most, um, and increase the chances of stabilizing mental health because, you know, mental health is, is so much about relational health, your quality of relationships.

Tara: I love that.

And the idea of validation, um, that your feelings that you’re not alone in your feelings is really important. That isolation feeling too, um, mm-hmm. Is really important. Thanks for sharing that. I’m gonna ask you also, you know, to speak to our audience specifically because in our podcast we talk about, we talk to those school leaders, um, and we talk about mindfulness.

And how it applies to, to their work and home life. And in your book you say the more present you are internally, the more you recognize perfection externally, which ties right into this idea of mindfulness. So I wonder if, would you share some thoughts on mindfulness for perfectionists and how it applies to, um, you know, maybe what they’re doing at work, but also, um, you know, and the many hats that they wear and also, um, just their life, their home life, and family life

Katherine: too.

Sure. So mindfulness isn’t about getting to a state of contentedness necessarily, or peace or, or this cartoonish version of mindfulness that’s gloating around. That means you are unbothered and occupying some state of neutrality. Mindfulness is about inviting yourself into yourself and saying, what do I feel?

And allowing whatever comes up to come up and then asking yourself the next question, which is, what do I also feel, right? So if you feel, let’s say, burned out and you don’t practice mindfulness, then you’re just gonna kind of be scrambling, running around, trying to get a lot of stuff done. And you don’t really know how you feel.

You know, you just know you’re busy, you’re busy and you’re tired, and those are your two channels. And so mindfulness is about stopping checking in with yourself and then understanding that whatever it is that you feel, that’s not all that you feel. You know, I learned this model of feelings as a triangle or thinking about feelings as a big bird and the body of the bird.

Is the feeling that you’re most in touch with, like the tip of the triangle is the feeling you’re most in touch with, let’s call it for this example, being burnt out. But there are always at least two other feelings attached to that, right? And so one of the feelings might be, you know, I’m also curious about like, who’s done this before?

Who can help? Walk me through this, or I’m also feeling playful. And I need to leave work and go have some fun with my two best girlfriends now, you know? And just understanding that like your space is more expansive than it feels like it is when your stress response is activated. Cuz when your stress response is activated, you contract and the more you can be mindful, meaning.

You can kind of create little lighthouses in your emotional landscape to see, oh, like light it up and see that it’s never just one thing. Then that one thing of being burnt out doesn’t eclipse the whole story. And then you, you know, and then you can have jumping off points from the other places. Cuz if you only feel burnt out, and a lot of people do this, they’re like nothing to do, but watch Netflix stay up.

And just brain flush or try to numb myself because I’m just burnt out. I just feel so burnt out. I’m so tired. It’s like, that’s not all you feel. That’s a really

Aubrey: important, um, I love the lighthouse piece. Like it’s not all you feel like what else is happening? Um, it’s so important and something that. You know, we can easily say busy.

I’m busy, I’m burnt out. I feel busy and burnt out and tired. Mm-hmm. Um, but there’s so much more to that. So thank you for reminding us about that. And, um, I will now picture lighthouses every time I’m feeling those, those, uh, feelings. Um, I’m, now, I’m excited to transition us to, uh, a part of our segment where we like to end our chats with some rapid fire questions.

So are you ready?

Katherine: Yes, hit

Aubrey: me. All right. Here’s the first one. It’s one of our favorite to ask. If you could put one book as mandatory reading in high school curriculum, what would

Katherine: it be? I put this in my book and I s I don’t recommend this book without adding the caveat of this should be mandatory reading in high school, Dr.

Harriet learners. Why won’t you apologize? Any of Dr. Harriet learner’s books, any of Dr. Brene Brown’s books, any of, oh God, so many brilliant author’s books, but that one in particular takes something that people really misunderstand and get, not just wrong but backwards, which is how to apologize. Ooh, I can’t

Tara: wait.

I have not heard of that before. I love a new book. Now I’m gonna add that to my list. Thank you. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Our next rapid fire question is, what is one app you could not loop without?

Katherine: Maybe the voice memo app, cuz I send my friend’s voice memos a lot or I. Marco Polo, I haven’t been on in a while, but God in the pandemic, that thing saved me and I was like, I hope nobody ever hacks into my Marco Polo, cuz me and my three best friends were just letting it rip.

So.

Tara: That’s awesome. Yeah, I used that a few times too. Yeah,

Aubrey: that’s great. Yes, I remember Marco Polo. I did it with my best friend as well. It was a great way to stay in touch. Um, what are you reading

Katherine: right now? So I am reading the, I think the title is Why The Pill Changes Everything Or How The Pill Changes Everything by Dr.

Sarah Hill. It’s a book I bought a long time ago and you know those books that you’re kind of afraid to read that just sit, I’m your shelf and you’re like, I’m not ready to read that. I felt, I felt that way about Untamed Glennon Doyles Untamed. I was like this book. I’m like scared to open it. It makes me feel like I might burn my life down.

But, um, then, then you finally get to a place where you’re like, okay, I can read it. It’s a book. I can, I can close it and stop reading it whenever I want. But it is a really powerful book, Dr. Hill’s book. It’s incredible and should also probably be mandatory reading in. In high school.

Aubrey: I’m curious, what is it?

Uh, like what is it about? I’m, because I’m, I’m just

Katherine: fascinated. So it’s about the birth control pill and how women are just kind of given the pill as their primary option of, um, contraception and how there are so many hormones that you are now pumping into your body and many people who are on the pill are on the pill for, you know, 10, 15, 20 years, you’re on the pill.

When you’re a teenager, when you’re still in, in a, sometimes when you’re still in emerging adolescence and how that interacts with everything, how it changes the people you’re attracted to, and so that when you get off the pill, you know some people have called birth control pill, the divorce pill because you’re like, why am I feeling so differently about my partner?

Well, it’s because your whole hormonal system has changed and just so many things I. I have to stop my myself boundaries. I have to put boundaries on this because I will talk about this book, how the Pill Changes Everything. Sarah Hill read it.

Aubrey: I’m so excited, and I’ll just plug our Good Reads list, so all your recommendations will end up on our Good reads list that Tara put together.

Um, so our school educators will have access to that, and it’s such a great resource because so many of these books, Tara and I didn’t know about it, and now we’re plugging through the list, reading them all. So thank you for sharing.

Katherine: My pleasure.

Tara: Yes, thank you. Gosh, this has been amazing. Um, I’d like to ask you one last question, which is, um, I mean, you’ve given us so much great advice.

I, I’m reading your book. I have to say, at times I wanted to cry cuz I just felt so empowered and just so grateful for the things that, that you shared there. But what’s one great piece of advice that you can leave us with today, Catherine?

Katherine: I think this might sound strange. I’ve never said this before. But I think to just not be afraid of feeling alive.

And what I hoped that my book did is disarm people from feelings that we automatically label as bad. You know, anger in particular and help them take an all parts or welcome approach to themselves and really celebrate the wholeness that’s already inside of them. And in order to do that, you really have to understand that feeling alive is gonna mean you’re in pain a lot.

And that that’s not wrong. That that is just part of the human experience and everybody feels that way. You know, if you too, and I were on the call for, you know, the rest of the morning, we would discover that all three of us have things in our life that we don’t know what to do about, that are big question marks that are painful or that we are around people who we don’t know how to help.

And we don’t know what to do about that. And that is painful. And, and these things happen over and over and over again and in response to them, a lot of people numb themselves out and you don’t feel really alive and engaged in your life when you’re numbing out with overworking, overeating, over drinking, all, all that stuff.

And I would say just don’t be afraid to turn the volume down a little bit. Doesn’t have to be all the way. We all numb a little bit. On your numbing and turn up the volume a little bit on what is it like to be me and, and not running from that.

Aubrey: Thank you. That is so powerful. As was this whole conversation.

We’re so grateful that you are shared so much of your wisdom with our guests. Now, if people wanna learn more about you and your book, where can they

Katherine: find you online? Okay, well the website for the book is perfectionist guide.com. You can take the quiz there. Um, all of that book stuff also lives on my website, Katherine Morgan scheffler.com.

And I’m on Instagram at Katherine Morgan Scheffler. And so I hope everybody connects. Um, the Parisian perfectionist in me wants ideal connection, so everybody, everybody come and say hi. And I hope you read the book. It’s The Perfectionist Guide to Losing Control, A Path to Peace and Power.

Tara: Thank you so much for joining us.

Have a great day, Catherine.

Katherine: Thanks. This was so much fun. Thanks for having me. Inquiry Tracker is the all in one CR R M solution used by

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