3. Improving Your Work and Home Life Through the Enneagram with Shay Bocks
Have you ever wondered what the Enneagram is all about? In this episode, Aubrey & Tara interview Shay Bocks, Brand Strategist & Enneagram Consultant, about everything enneagram. We discuss the different enneagram types, how your enneagram style may affect parenting, and why this information is key to being more effective for school leaders to mindful at home and at work.
About Shay Bocks:
Shay Bocks is a brand strategist and Enneagram practitioner who helps you unlock the fullness of your life’s work. She believes that personal and professional growth go hand in hand and that the Enneagram is a helpful map for both. We’re so excited to have you here today, Shay, thanks so much for joining us.
Aubrey: (00:01): Welcome to Mindful School Marketing, your go-to podcast for personal and professional growth.
Tara: (00:07): We’re school marketers, business owners, and moms, passionate about connecting other school professionals with tools and strategies for success. We love solving problems, exploring new ideas and thinking outside the box. Let’s transform your school and life starting right now.
Aubrey: (00:25): Welcome to Mindful School Marketing. I’m Aubrey Bursch,
Tara: (00:28): And I’m Tara Claeys. Today we’re joined by Shay Bocks. Shay is a brand strategist and Enneagram practitioner who helps you unlock the fullness of your life’s work. She believes that personal and professional growth go hand in hand and that the Enneagram is a helpful map for both. We’re so excited to have you here today, Shay, thanks so much for joining us.
Shay: (00:49): Thank you for having me. I’m super thrilled about this concept of this podcast. I cannot wait to get into a conversation with you.
Aubrey: (00:56): And I am so glad you’re here too, especially because I had a session with you yesterday for my Enneagram. Can you tell us a little bit more about yourself?
Shay: (01:03): Sure, so I’ve been doing branding for about 12 years. So I’ve done everything from WordPress development, logo, design, brand strategy, all of it. A few years ago, I had a quite popular WordPress theme called foodie pro in the food blogging space. It was very successful. So I was very thankful for that. But I ended up selling it a few years back, just because it didn’t feel authentic to me anymore. I was ready to move on to something else. So I sold that and then moved more deeply into brand strategy. Along with that, I was doing some personal growth through the Enneagram and realized that I could actually combine the Enneagram with the brand strategy that I was already doing. And so that’s led me to where I am today.
Tara: (01:54): Excellent. And I will say I’m going back in time that I met Shay at a Word Camp, which is a conference for WordPress geeks. The first one I ever went to and we ended up sitting at a lunch table together in Baltimore. I don’t know if you remember that but I’ve been following Shay ever since and have been following all of her Enneagram stuff and have had my Enneagram done with her, my husband and I did it together as a couple this summer and then our adult children did it too. So we found it a very helpful exercise for us in understanding our relationship with ourselves and with each other. So we’re really excited to talk more about the Enneagram today. So let’s get rolling. I also want to talk about your parenting too. But why don’t you start by telling us about what the Enneagram is and how it’s used?
Shay: (02:44): Sure. So the Enneagram itself is simply a symbol. It’s a nine pointed symbol and it’s been used for thousands of years through many spiritual practices and communities for personal growth. In the seventies, a couple of psychotherapists were using the Enneagram and realized that they could create a typology of personality on top of what the Enneagram already represented. And so today, when someone talks about the Enneagram, what they’re talking about is a personality typing system. Well, most of the time, unless you’re like in a deep spiritual school, then they’re talking about fourth wave teachings. But what it means is that essentially anyone could represent one of these nine personality types and we can actually break that down even further into 27 subtypes. So these are things that tell us what our personality structure is, how we’ve grown, what our growth path is. So the Enneagram is more than just a typology system. It’s actually a map for inner growth. It actually tells you like where you naturally grow.
Aubrey: (03:53): I love that. And I found when I had my session with you, I found that so helpful. It was really helpful. And I had no idea, honestly, I’ve heard the word Enneagram, thrown out in the space, especially being an entrepreneur and business owner. I have wondered, do I really need to know that? And it really, really, it is so helpful in so many ways. So I’m really excited to dive in more with you about that. But as we’re looking at the Enneagram, you know our podcast talks about mindfulness, right? I’d love to hear what you think. You know, how mindfulness relates to the Enneagram? What would you say about that?
Shay: (04:37): Yeah, so Enneagram is completely about self-awareness and mindfulness is about observation being mindful of what’s around you being present. This growth path that I’m talking about through the Enneagram, the point of the growth path is to bring you more into presence, bring you more into awareness. What happens is we end up going through our lives with all of these automatic patterns, these personality patterns, emotional habits, limiting beliefs, they’re automatic and unconscious. And so by learning these things about ourselves and learning how to observe them and identify them, we become more present, more mindful. And we live with less judgment of ourselves and other people at the same.
Tara: (05:20): How does the Enneagram compare to other personality tests? I know there’s of course the Myers-Briggs and the DISC and the StrengthsFinder and all these different things, and I’ve done all of them, but how does the Enneagram compare and why did you go the Enneagram route?
Shay: (05:37): Yeah, so it’s interesting. I’ve alays been averse to Myers-Briggs for some reason. I don’t know why, but that’s probably the most popular one. There have been people who can compare and contrast Myers-Briggs to Enneagram and don’t feel like they’re even in the same playing field. Then there’s the other ones, like you mentioned, I love StrengthsFinder for a professional person, StrenghtsFinder is amazing. And I think everyone should do it. But there’s something different about those. Those are focused on behavior, like what our behaviors are and Enneagram is more about motivation. Enneagram is based on a lot of childhood psychology and how we develop our ego over time. And it’s less about what we actually do in the world and more about why we do the things we do in the world. Does that help differentiate?
Aubrey: (06:30): Yeah, absolutely. I would say, you know, in our conversation, in my session with you yesterday we talked about both of us are parents, right? And I was asking you as a parent, how can I apply it to my kids and my parenting? And you gave me some good advice. So I’d like to hear, could you please share with our audience a little bit about how finding out more about how your Enneagram can help you in the parenting world?
Shay: (07:01): Yeah, absolutely. So, I think number one, what it does is it causes us to be more self-aware of what we do and our relationship with our kids and the things that we might require of our kids, the things, the expectations we have of ourselves and how we deal with our kids. Because I know for me, I’m an Enneagram 4, very emotional, but I’m a specific type of 4, which means I’m emotional, but I don’t share my emotions with other people. And so I find a lot of times I end up unconsciously relying on my kids to fill my emotional needs. And that was a huge thing that I learned. And I still, I don’t want to say struggle with it, but I notice it, I observe it like, “oh, Shay, it’s not their responsibility to make sure that you are emotionally secure right now.” Because they have their own lives and their own problems. But then also on the flip side, I think what’s really interesting is when we do typing sessions and I start to explain to people why their type is the way their type is, they’re like, “oh crap, how have I screwed up my kids? What did I do?” Aubrey: (08:09): I was that parent yesterday, I was worried, remember in the session, I was like, “I’m totally screwing up my kids. I just know it.”
Shay: (08:19): And what I have to remind people is that you haven’t screwed up your kids. Let me just say that because it’s part of natural human evolution that we develop an ego, we develop a personality and we actually have to do that to become mature human beings. So every single personality structure is based on some core unmet need during childhood and what we can drill these unmet needs down two or three things. If we look at the three centers of the Enneagram, we can see that there are three core unmet needs. There’s more intense, unmet needs underneath those, but core unmet needs are for holding, mirroring, and safety. So as parents, if we’re constantly, just doing our best to create space for our kids and know, like have them know that they are valuable in the space that they’re in, if we can mirror their emotions back to them, and if we can make sure that they feel safe and secure, then we’re doing everything we could possibly do. So that’s like the only tip I can give for parenting. I’m in the midst of parenting now, and I don’t get it right most of the time. So I can’t say that I know what I’m doing there, but I do know that these three core themes are what cause most of the pain and strife in the human experience. And so if we can try to focus on those three things in our kids, then we’re doing better and trying to heal a little bit through their generation.
Tara: (09:52): Yeah. Have you done the profile for your kids? You know what their Enneagrams are? Can you do that for children? What age? I mean, are we born with whatever we are?
Shay: (10:02): So this is a hot debated topic. There are some people who think you can take your kids as early as seven? Because seven is the age where our personality structure is pretty set, but we continue to grow our ego, develop our ego through our early twenties. And so for instance, my oldest, I thought he was an eight for the longest time. I was like, I swear, he’s an eight, this kid is an eight and now he’s 12. And I’m like, well, maybe he’s a seven. Oh my gosh, he might be a seven. So I don’t think you can really know. Uranio Paes is a great Enneagram teacher. And he says that children are much closer to essence. And so they’re going to exhibit traits of their arrow points far more easily than their core personality type. So I think with kids, you just don’t know. My opinion is you just don’t know. All you can do is try to love and support them, create space for them create safety. And then when they’re adults they’ll do this work on their own because that’s another key thing is Enneagram work is self-development work. We can’t do this work on behalf of anyone else. We can only do it on behalf of ourselves. And so that includes our kids too.
Aubrey: (11:20): Which is a shame I would love for this Enneagram to just get everyone magically into this in my family, why don’t you do some self-development work? But my kids are super young. So it sounds like we have a ways to go before, you know, they would be on that path.
Tara: (11:41): Yeah. I know. We talked earlier about the fact that your kids attend Montessori school, and I know you’re really involved in their schooling and in your parenting with them. Does the philosophy of Montessori overlap at all with sort of the approach of Enneagram? Because I know it’s a different model than a traditional school. Does that fit with your sort of approach with the Enneagram, I guess is my question.
Shay: (12:09): 100%. And in fact, it’s actually my kids’ schooling that has taught me a lot of the things that I make connections with with the Enneagram. I don’t know if you guys know this or not. Your kids are still pretty young Aubrey, but, once Montessori kids get into elementary age, there’s something called the cosmic curriculum. Yes. You do know this good, because that has been, I mean, yes, Montessori is wonderful for preschool age, infants, toddlers. It’s amazing the independence and the practical life and all of those things are amazing. But I think the real magic of Montessori is in elementary. Because of this cosmic curriculum, there are, five great lessons, four or five great lessons, depending on which school you go to that they teach that teach all the way from the beginning of the universe all the way up until the evolution of man. And they learn these lessons every single year. My oldest son took a year off from Montessori school when he was in the fourth grade. Like I said, I thought he was an 8, he’s a challenging child. He’s got ADHD and ODD. So we took a year off of school and tried homeschool. And I had to give him this lesson because we were trying to follow the curriculum, so he could go back in. And I gave him this lesson about stellar nucleosynthesis. He was in the fourth grade. Okay. And this is something these kids learn the fourth grade, but the way that the lesson was set up, I understood stellar nucleosynthesis for the first time. And there was this deep spiritual lesson that was taught within it. It was a science lesson, but what it really taught me is that particles within the universe were attracted to one another and they combined to create something new. And this is, in essence, creation and it’s these hydrogen atoms that combined to create, you know, oh god what is next? I don’t even know, whatever the next element in the periodic table is. And they combine and combine, combine until it got so heavy that it just burst. And I was like, Oh my gosh, that is creativity right there. That is in essence what we’re doing throughout life. We’re bringing previously unrelated ideas together and there’s this combustion that happens to create something new. And that’s when I really realized that, especially in the Montessori program, they’re not just teaching scientific principles and math and all of that. They’re teaching these really deep, spiritual things about life. In fact, Maria Montessori has a book, well, many books about spiritual development of children, but one called Psychogeometry. Yeah. Psychogeometry. she actually thought that through geography or geometry, excuse me, geometry, you could teach the child spiritual truths and these aren’t religious things. They’re not like Christian or Jewish or Islam or anything like that. They’re like a deep psyche of the child is what they’re forming. They do that with so much respect and so much care that these children come out of elementary school, knowing everything – that they are the product of everything that came before them. And they don’t just mean their parents. They mean coral in the ocean and bacteria in the soupy, whatever that formed the earth. They also know that they have an impact on everything that comes after them. And so it’s just this beautiful, spiritual element of Montessori that I connect with so, so deeply. Yeah.
Aubrey: (15:50): I always, I don’t know if you do this for your Montessori school, but I’m always like, so when are you going to open the parents section of the Montessori school? So I can go back and redo my entire education. By the way, I see that as a huge opportunity for many schools like Montessori. So I feel the same way. I’m so passionate about it. And I just thought, oh, this looks like a good school for my kids to go to. And little did I realize that as I’m studying, like you are, the curriculum, I’m like, oh my God, amazing. So fun!
Shay: (16:24): A hundred percent. I do feel like, yes, it’s great that my kids are in Montessori Montessori school, but I have learned, and I have grown since they’ve been in there, which is, I can’t imagine anything better. Yeah.
Aubrey: (16:39): We’re thinking of schools in general. With your work with schools too, I’m sure you work with a lot of administrators and school leaders. How do you see any program being able to help, you know, schools, professionals and administrators be able to either work better or more together as a team?
Shay: (17:01): For sure. So there’s a couple of ways that this could be done. So one is obviously in the branding of the school. So I do marketing and branding for a couple of Montessori schools and a Montessori teacher training center, which by the way, Virginia Montessori teacher training is awesome. I think there are a couple of ways that it can be done. So in branding, we can use the Enneagram by one identifying the archetype of the brand itself and the audience that we want to reach with that brand. And here are some things that can be done through the Enneagram to make sure we are, um, resonating with those audiences that want to be reached. And then also within the school itself, if you know what your teacher’s Enneagram types are, or they themselves know Enneagram types, then there’s a whole other level of collaboration and cooperation and just how the school can be managed that can happen once you have that level of self-awareness in your staff.
Tara: (18:03): Super interesting. I mean, I think those two things are, are quite different, but they both impact a Marcom department within an independent school, understanding your target audience, with what that type might be. And then understanding how you relate to your colleagues, which I mean, it’s like with your partner too, I mean, and your children as they get older, like mine. So that’s really fascinating. We have talked, we wanted to kind of dig into who you are and talk about schools, but I really think we need to now kind of take a step back and talk a little bit more about the Enneagram because you described it really well, but there are a lot of, there are nine types right? And then you mentioned arrows and wings. And so I know we don’t have hours to talk about this, but I really would like if you would walk through the nine types. I know Aubrey and I have each had you do our type and Aubrey is a four, and I’m a one. So maybe you can talk a little bit about those specifically, but kind of go through one through nine in a cursory way.
Shay: (19:10): Sure. I can do it really quickly. Just go through them and then we can talk about your types. So we’ll start with the Body Types, which are Eight, Nine, and One. Eight, is called the Challenger because they’re very good at leading, they’re very justice centered. They want everything to be fair in the world. That would be the easy way to explain them. Of course, all of these there’s nuanced explanations that we won’t be able to get to. Nines are called the Peacemakers. They tend to put others’ needs ahead of their own. And so they become almost like sleepy to their own needs. But they’re great at mediating conversations, great at bringing different ideas together in one space. So they’re called the Peacemakers and type Ones are also very justice-centered. These are called the Perfectionists. They seek out imperfections in the world and find ways to create perfection from them. So they’re very detail oriented. These are people that want to bring more goodness into the world. Let’s just put it that way. And then we have a Heart Type, heart types are Twos, Threes, and Fours. Twos we’ll call the Pleasers or the Befrienders, as Beatrice Chestnut calls them. These are people who really are relationship-focused and their whole world almost revolves around creating relationships, creating friendships, befriending people, and getting needs met through some kind of mutual action. And then there are the type Threes who are called the Achievers. These are people who are super efficient. They are the goal winners of the world. They’re very goal-oriented and always need to be working towards something, it seems like. They have a big issue with slowing down and just being instead of doing. And then we have the type Fours, which are, we can call them the Individualists, the meaning makers, the artists of the world, not all Fours are creative though, so that can kind of be a misnomer. But Fours are deeply emotional, very empathic. Not all Fours share their emotions, but they experience a lot of emotions. And these are the people that see true deep beauty in the world. They’re always looking for a substance, a depth. And then we have the Head Types, which are Five, Six and Seven. Fives are the Observers. These are people who care deeply about gaining more knowledge, observing what’s going on around them, but they also can build a castle around themselves at times and create distance between themselves and others. The Sixes are the Loyalists, is what we call them. They are really concerned with safety. They’re excellent troubleshooters. They can see problems coming from a mile away. But they can experience some anxiety because of that gift of being able to think about what might be coming. And then we have the Sevens that are also Head Types. These are like party people, the they’re the life of the party really. I have lots of fun Sevens in my life and I don’t know what I would do without them because they just think everything’s so fun and everything’s awesome. They’re eternal optimists. So yeah, so that’s Eight to Seven around the Enneagram would be the basic introduction to all the types. Yeah. So I’m curious, Tara, since you learned you were a One, what was the thing that you were like, this is the thing that defines me or, or what did you learn that was most surprising?
Tara: (22:50): You know, even when you go through those descriptions for me, I still like think that I’m a Three, because I feel like I just feel like that description is me, but I don’t like it. I mean, I think I remember I was so relieved to learn that I was not a Three because I just didn’t want, I guess maybe those are the things you don’t like about yourself. So I appreciate the fact that I’m a One, because I am very perfectionist and I do like to, you know, find things that aren’t working and fix them. So that definitely does fit me. I do definitely have some of that. Can’t stop, always going, doing, um, kind of a part too, so talk about how, I mean, I’m sure that people have different elements of different numbers, right? And so the one that rises to the top is the one that you, that you are, is that how that works. Talk a little bit about how the numbers relate and how you can have more than one or what those wings and arrows are?
Shay: (23:46): For sure. So you only have one core personality type. But here’s the thing. We come into the world in a unit of consciousness. So when we’re born as babies we actually think we’re part of our mother’s body. And it takes us a little while to realize where this separate being well, that continues beyond our physical body and towards our, our mental states and our emotional states and realizing that we are this separate individual spiritually from everyone else. So that is what happens when we create personality. And so it’s almost like think of the Enneagram symbol which I have on here. I think if the Enneagram said, well, you are this whole entire thing, but what happens is you get really scared or some trauma happens in some way in your childhood and you go over to one number and you sit down and you’re like, oh, this feels safe and comfortable here. I’m going to stay here for awhile. And your personality type keeps you safe in the world. It helps you to grow. It does what it needs to do. The difference is we’re not seven-year-old kids who need safety anymore. We’re grown adults who are in control of our own lives. And so what we start to do through the Enneagram work is learn how to break out of that box and realize that who we are, the essence of who we are as much bigger than this one personality type. And so for instance, Tara, for you, you’re a One. So you have two wings, Nine and Two, which means sometimes you could take on some strategies of the Nine and Two to be a more mature whole person. You also have arrows to Seven and Four. And so there are qualities of Seven and Four that you take on either unconsciously or consciously when in distress or in growth to have other outlets. Like you can’t just be a perfectionist your whole life. Sometimes you have to relax and have a party. Sometimes you have to go deep into your emotions and create something. These are things that make up your whole human being. You’re fully human self. You’re not just one type, but your personality, your ego structure is based off of one particular Enneagram type.
Aubrey: (26:00): That was so amazing. And I will say, similar to Tara, so first of all, I took like 15 Enneagram tests online and I hated the results of all of them. They were pointing me as an Eight and a Five. And so when we had our session, I was pleasantly surprised hear I was a Four. Although I wasn’t thrilled with being a Four because I wanted to be the Three, because all the cool entrepreneurial people are Threes, at least in my mind. But once you explain the Four, I was like, oh yeah, that’s me. And so I think when you were talking about the Four for me, what did you say? Like you said, my coping strategies or my way to balance out my Four to be able to better serve. I forgot what my I’d have to look like, what my arrows and how would that look?
Shay: (26:46): So I’ll show this again. So you’re a Four, so your wings are Five and Three, which is why Five came up for you on the test. You are very knowledge driven like you like to research and stuff. Um, but then you also have arrows to One and Two. And so for a self preservation Four specifically, the arrow to One is really strong because we’re very action-oriented people, unlike maybe the more dominant social Fours that’s more known out there in the world. So you have, you have these paths to One, Two, Three, and Five that are all available to you and you naturally go to them unconsciously, but you can also consciously go to them to take on higher aspects of those types of more positive, truly gifted pieces of those types.
Tara: (27:36): You can totally go to that Three, then Aubrey, you can take it. You can have the Three, I don’t want it.
Aubrey: (27:46): That’s truly, I think what that points to is me trying to self-diagnose myself on all those online tests. It’s not a good idea probably. And I maybe that’s what you run into in your work. People come to you thinking they’re like one thing, and then you’re like, oh, actually when we dive into this, not so much.
Shay: (28:03): Yeah. I think about half the time that happens, tests are only accurate. I would say 50% to 60% of the time because there are nuances that the online test can’t really pick up. Like it thought you were an Eight or a Five and you’re definitely not an Eight. I could tell that right away, and you’re definitely not a Five. I could tell that right away. So digging deeper into your story, your childhood, like how you experienced your early adulthood, the computer can’t really do that. So we did that together and landed on the type that you felt really good for you. And it wasn’t, like I told you what type you are. I was just like, this is my hypothesis. Let me explain why. And you’re like, yes, absolutely. So that’s what it should be like. And a lot of times people will come to me having taken a test and they’re like, I don’t really understand the results. It doesn’t make a lot of sense. And sometimes the tests got them right, but they don’t really know why it got them. Right. And so I do typing sessions to help kind of demystify.
Tara: (29:00): Yeah. Can you describe what, what goes in for people who might be interested? What is a typing session?
Shay: (29:07): Sure. So it’s a two-hour interview where I ask a ton of questions. We go through all kinds of things and I try to respect the boundaries of whoever I’m sitting in front of. But I do ask questions that oftentimes do go deep. We bring out childhood stuff, we bring up things that might’ve happened to them in their twenties, how they experience life, what their relationships are like. It’s not your typical like discovery meeting for a branding project. This goes way, way deeper. So I get those answers. I make connections notes for myself on a sheet of paper, and then I show them two types. I say, you could, I think you could either be this one or this one. And then we talk about what those two types are. And then oftentimes they’ll pick the one that I thought they were. And we’ll talk about it, I’ll say, okay, I think this is why. And we explain it, we break down the type. We talk about wings and arrows. We talk about coping strategies, how to move forward. And hopefully it’s like a catalyst for really doing deep work with the Enneagram going forward, because this isn’t something you do one time. It’s like that was great. I’m self-aware now. No, it’s like just the start of it. And then we can keep going with it for years for our entire lifetimes, really.
Aubrey: (30:27): That’s great. It’s all about the constant learning that is life. Right. And then this personal and professional growth we have to go through. Well time is flying by. We’d love to ask you some questions that we ask all our guests. So are you ready?
Shay: (30:44): Sure. Go for it.
Aubrey: (30:45): Alright, alright. So what are the most important things you do to grow personally and professionally?
Shay: (30:53): Yeah, so I think the most important thing I do is it’s this Enneagram work. I do it for myself. I work with coaches who have helped me through right growth path. Take classes, learn, read, everything I can about my personality type structure and how do I break out of it? So I would say that’s probably the biggest thing that I do. Not a surprise.
Tara: (31:17): That was an easy one. What do you think the most important things we can do? What are the most important things or one important thing we can do to be more mindful?
Shay: (31:29): Learn how to observe ourselves without judgment, learning how you react and like noticing it in the moment is really, really hard, but then what’s even harder is not judging ourselves for it. And realizing that observing is part of the process. I think that’s, that would probably be my key thing.
Aubrey: (31:51): That’s so good. And that is a constant battle.
Tara: (31:59): Especially for a One, I think.
Aubrey: (31:59): Thank you, so we like to end our chats with some rapid fire questions. So, I’m very curious about this. What is one book that has made an impression on you that you would want included in the high school curriculum?
Shay: (32:17): Oh, the high school curriculum, I was thinking little kid books. Okay. So high school curriculum, I would say the Howard Zinn project. And I think that’s probably in some schools, um, but the Young People’s History of the United States has been amazing. I think that it’s not everywhere. It should be. Yeah.
Tara: (32:36): Hmm. Cool. And what are you reading? Right now?
Shay: (32:40): I am reading, surprise, The Spiritual Dimensions of the Enneagram. I’m always reading an Enneagram book. Yes, my gosh.
Aubrey: (32:52): Are you going to run out of reading of Enneagram reading books at some point or hopefully people are producing them fast enough, so you can keep up with that.
Shay: (33:00): You know, I don’t think I will run out because I’m gradually going further and further back. So like older Enneagram type books, because there’s so much knowledge out there. So I don’t know if I will.
Aubrey: (33:11): That’s true. I didn’t even think about that. It’s like, it’s pretty much timeless. I mean, I’m sure there are new nuances and things, but it is an essence, like been here for a long time.
Shay: (33:20): Right. And I want to get back to the root of it. I don’t want it to be like, I’m a Four. I can’t do what everybody else is doing. I need to get to the root of it. I love it. I love it.
Tara: (33:30): What is one app you couldn’t live without?
Shay: (33:34): Yeah, so I think I’m going to go with Lightroom. It’s the Adobe photo editing app. I don’t think I could live without that. Nothing to do with mindfulness. It’s probably vain as heck, but I edit all of my photos and I, I have to!
Tara: (33:49): Yeah, you do some beautiful photographs and your photos of your kids. I love following you on Instagram. Okay. Our last question is what is one great piece of advice that you can leave as with Shay?
Shay: (34:01): One great piece of advice. I did think about this. Remember that we’re all tender mammals with evolutionary potential and just remember like you, you are a mammal, there are thousands, millions of years of genetic information running through you, that’s unconscious in your body. But that you have the evolutionary potential to, to change things, to do better too, to grow.
Tara: (34:33): Ah, wonderful.wow. That’s inspirational.
Aubrey: (34:35): Yeah, I want to make that like a quote card and throw it on Instagram.
Tara: (34:41): Well, thank you so much. Shay. Where can people find you online?
Shay: (34:46): My website shaybocks.com and on Instagram @shaybocks. Thank you. Great.
Aubrey: (34:52): Thank you so much. Loved having you.
Shay: (34:55): Thank you. I loved this conversation.
Tara: (35:00): Thanks for joining us on the Mindful School Marketing podcast.
Aubrey: (35:03): We’d love it if you pop into iTunes and leave a review, five star preferred, let us know how you liked the show. It helps us improve what we’re doing and it helps others find us too.