49. Marketing Your School to Gen Y and Z Parents with Timo Nieuwoudt

Tara: Welcome to Mindful School Marketing. I’m Tara.


Aubrey: And I’m Aubrey Bursch. Today we’re joined by Timo Nieuwoudt. Timo leads the marketing team at Digistorm, a software company that specializes in K through 12 schools. Unlike most tech marketers, he believes in the power of building brands around the people they’re meant to serve, and then using a mix of traditional and digital channels to connect with the audience. 
Professionally, he’s worked as a solo marketer and within larger marketing teams in the travel technology, and now the education space. He lives in what’s called the Sunshine State in of Queensland in Australia, which might explain why he’s a firm believer there’s enough sunshine in the world for all of us. 
Welcome Timo.


Timo: Hello. Hello. Hello.


Tara: Hi, Timo. Thanks for joining us today. We’re really glad to see you and we’ve seen you before. It is good to see you again. Can you tell us more about yourself? 


Timo: Yeah, sure. So as Aubrey mentioned, I live in Queensland and Australia. I live in a town called Brisbane with my partner and my little golden doodle called Coco. And we have a little white picket fence life, I have to say, and it’s nice and it it feels good. I am originally from South Africa, though I grew up across a couple of cities in South Africa as a kid and then left after university. So I’ve traveled my way around the world. Super passionate about travel. As a young kid, I used to go and sit on the rooftop and we were under a big flight path to one of the airports and I’d always think, oh, one day I’m gonna get on one of those planes and go somewhere. And the only way I could do that was to take a job as a flight attendant. And I ended up being a flight attendant with the intention of just doing it for a year or so, and it ended up being a five or six year stent, which was fun. Yeah, so travel’s always been a big part of- part of my life and then professionally moved into the travel industry after that. And technology and yeah it just grew from one thing to the other and found my happy place when I moved from a sales role into a marketing role. And that’s of how I landed in marketing, really like an accidental marketer. I’d say found my happy space, found what I felt was a good career fit for me, and I’ve just loved it ever since. And I’ve been in marketing probably for the last 10, or 10 or 12 years. 


Aubrey: That’s so fun. I love how people like end up in marketing, but they have this long route to get there and that you were a flight attendant, which I think is so cool and you mentioned it’s not exact exactly glamorous. 


Timo: No, not exactly. And I am- I’ve got a couple of embarrassing celebrity moments that, oh, I just, some of the worst moments of my life, to be honest. And it was yeah, so I flew for a big Middle Eastern airline and we were based- we were traveling all over the world and I did a flight from Doha to London. Family booked out the hall of first class and was working up front. Didn’t quite realize who they were served them the whole flight. And as they got off in London trying to make chit chat, I told the gentleman, oh, you must love tennis. You have so many bags filled with tennis rackets. And it ended up being Rafael Nadal and his kids and they were playing Wimbledon two days later. Couple of really embarrassing moments, but still good fun. He took it in great spirits and yeah, he was a really nice guy. 


Tara: Maybe he was relieved not to be recognized. He’s probably- 


Timo: Probably. Probably, yeah, that’s right. 


Aubrey: Meanwhile, you’re like, man, you must love tennis, buddy. 


Timo: Just try to strike up a conversation cuz they’d been sleeping the whole night. It was an overnight flight and barely spoke a word and it was trying, just trying to make sure that they felt there was a little bit of love for them before they left. 


Aubrey: Oh my goodness. I love that. And you’re like one of those people Timo, since I’ve ever since I met you and you can strike up a conversation. You always put people at ease, so I can see why being a flight attendant would be a good fit for you. 


Timo: It’s good fun, always good fun. 


Aubrey: I’m curious now if we wanna shift gears a bit. We are really excited to dive into today’s topic and you so generously, generously come on today to talk to us about something that I know our audience will love to talk about. And that’s Gen Y and Gen Z. So as we’re thinking about this topic, I know your role and work in enrollment and marketing gives you unique insight into this. Can you define these groups? Like when were they born, how old are they now? And then can you share like how they might impact the way we communicate, market, and engage with prospective and current families? 


Timo: Yeah. Yeah. Really good. Good and interesting topic. And I think super, super relevant for anybody who works in any field really, but especially at schools at the moment. So I think we’re at this unique crossroads where there’s these I’ll say three generations coming together. So we have our Gen Xs who were mid sixties through to the early eighties. I think they’re really important cuz they’re their grandparents at the moment, or early grandparents, kids at the end of high school. So from a gifting and donation point of view, I think they’re becoming really important. And then secondly, we’ve got our millennials who Gen Y kind of make up the bulk of our parenting cohorts at the moment. So mid eighties through to the late nineties, and then late nineties through to the early, to the sort of 2010 ish, 2012, we’ve got our Gen Z. So their kids are starting to come into the system. If you’re a popular school, they’re most likely starting to wait list for your early years. And I think what the challenge might be looking at all three of these is that they come with very different expectations. They have different levels of interaction with technology, so they expect technology in different ways. If you think about how dating worked and how banking works for a early Gen Xer versus a Gen Z, it’s completely different. And if you’re from Gen Z or a late millennial, you’re probably doing your banking, your dating, your medical transactions, anything online. Like I speak to my doctor through an app these days. That’s just how it works, right? And transferring that into one of the biggest investments a person would have to make a decision on i e their child’s education. I think there’s a lot of opportunity and challenge there for us all. 


Tara: Yeah, definitely. I think the the definitions is it’s always fun to see where you fall yourself and where your family members fall and it makes me feel extremely old. I know you two are a bit younger than me and my kids are old enough to start having kids just about, so they’re gonna be the parents coming up. And it’s a little bit frightening, but let’s talk about challenges. So for the Gen Y and Gen Z these upcoming parents, current and upcoming parents, what do you think the biggest challenges and opportunities are? Obviously when you talk about everything being online and us being used to that, of course, having online interactions with them is important, but what are some challenges with that too? 


Timo: Yeah, so I think I think there’s a, there’s two things to it. The first is the way that I think the two different generations look at imaging and just the marketing collateral we put in front of them. I think Airbnb does an amazing job speaking to Gen Z. And if you look at their campaigns, it’s visually very, realistically driven for millennials, so the gen Y’s, I think we still wanted to be sold the dream. It’s quite emotive the way that we did our videos for them, the way that we wanted to connect emotionally. And I think Gen Z seems to be a lot more intellectually driven by the advertising that’s being put in front of them and they can see through the shine and the stories that we tell through emotive advertising. So I think there’s a big shift there. And what that means in reality for a school, I think is that things like social proof become extremely important. So if I look at videos for schools at the moment, it would be quite emotive. It would tell a story of the child of the whole child and how, how that kind of translates into the outcome at the end of an education with your school. And if we look at what I think Gen Z’s most likely gonna be wanting is what’s a day in the life of my kid gonna be like, what’s their friends gonna be like? What’s the families that I’m gonna be interacting with gonna be like, and we can already start seeing that shift in the first sort of school videos that are coming through and the collateral being used. So I think that’s one challenge. A second challenge, I think is meeting families where they’re at. So if you, I mentioned before that you can do these really complex transactions online. Like banking is such a complex transaction. You can remortgage your home most likely through an app if you really wanted to, or you could have deep conversations with a therapist online. There’s so many things you can do online that you traditionally would’ve done in person. And yet if you look at schools, there’s so many steps in the admissions journey that doesn’t work that way yet. We often see schools still have a 25 page manual form that has to be filled in which in today’s digital age, I think is quite challenging for parents if if you’ve gotta figure out where your nearest mailbox is to send that back to the school and things. There’s a, there’s a lot of small things that I think we can still work on as an industry to, to overcome these kind of challenges. 


Aubrey: I love how you mentioned the forms because who owns a printer? I own one, I think it’s gathering dust in the corner, but like printing out those things, like I’m always so frustrated when the school’s like, oh yeah, download this, and then fill it out and then have your doctor sign it and then upload it. I’m like, oh gosh, that’s a lot of, there’s gotta be a better way. 


Timo: That’s it. And on the school side, it’s so busy. It’s just so busy. There’s no time to process all of that data. Who has the time to take all of that 25 pages worth of personal information and things, besides the risk, but just being able to transfer that into a spreadsheet or wherever it lives at the school. That’s a big job. That’s a lot of hours spent. 


Aubrey: And it probably doesn’t get done until the end of that school year, then you gotta start all over to the next one. 


Timo: Exactly. And we’re so used to getting instant answers. I think that’s the other thing is if we’re used to chatting to a provider through an app or customer service, when buying something online, you’re able to have a quick chat and get things done. Where with the school, yes. There’s more to it. There’s also you, I think parents wouldn’t want to be waiting three, four days for a response anymore. Which maybe was okay a few years back, but they’re so used to with all the other brands, they interact with quick responses and they’re able to find information super fast. And yeah, I think that’s that’s probably one of the biggest challenges. And how do we narrow that gap? 


Tara: I wanna jump in with an another question, it’s a little bit of a tangent on this, but it’s related. So we’re talking about marketing to parents and all of this technology that schools need to use. But I also wanna throw in here because we’re talking to people who are behind the scenes of all this technology, right? What- obviously, I am a gen, I guess I’m technically a Gen X person and I’m pretty tech savvy, but a lot of people who are working in schools now are not Gen Y and Gen Z, and so they have to then, not only do they have to offer this technology to their potential and rollies, but they also have to know how to use it themselves and embrace it too. So can you talk a little bit about your experience with that? Eventually they’re gonna be working and running these schools, right? But not yet. Talk about that if you wouldn’t mind. 


Timo: Oh, I love that. It is such a hot topic for us as somebody who has to provide these tools, like it’s such a tough one. So some of the things that we have learned over the last year or two is, I think handholding is really important. It’s one of the biggest changes that you can bring into a school is, let’s say, digitizing your admissions process, for example, right? So going from paper forms or having forms on your website to drive inquiries, et cetera, and that information falling into some form of a database automatically. So that’s a really big change for a lot of schools. I think the way that we’ve approached it is looking at- how do we onboard schools effectively and give them the time and the space they need? So typically a school that comes to us and who signs up for this kind of technology for the first time still have multiple spreadsheets. So they’d have a spreadsheet for each year level and all their white lists, and there’ll be a heap of parent information and what the family’s interested in and all those kind of things. So what we do is we try and help. Take all of that information and transfer it over to the system so that number one, it lives in one place for them. And then number two, give them a few months to onboard and learn where to click and which buttons to do and and so on. Fortunately, our product is reasonably intuitive, so people learn it really fast, but it’s more the mental shift, right? Going from a spreadsheet that you’ve worked on for the last 10 or 15 years that you know, inside, out to trusting this new system. And that’s what the schools tell us is that’s their biggest challenge is. As an enrollment officer is learning to trust a new system. And that trust only comes once they’ve seen the outcomes and they can start pressing one button and an enrollment contract is sent out, for example, or a follow-up email is automatically sent cuz the spreadsheet just can’t do those kind of things for you. So as soon as they start seeing the time saving that’s, I think when the mental shift starts happening and people are a little bit more open to, to, to working the, on the tech. And then our team are just great at literally handholding and spending as much time as they can with new clients. Cuz that’s the biggest challenge. If somebody has six or seven weeks to learn the system in an organized step by step way. I think that’s probably been the most successful way to onboard new clients that aren’t as tech savvy potentially. 


Aubrey: That makes a lot of sense. I think I’m curious because when we’re working with heads of school, and also with teams who may not be as tech savvy. It’s first making them aware of what else is out there right now and how things need to be done. And then the benefits right? Of saves you time and energy, right? So that you’re not having to do all that manual input and showing the value. And then it is the education. A lot of people aren’t just aware of how important it is. It’s not only making your life easier, it’s making your perspective family’s lives easier. So I think that’s a huge hurdle to overcome. And it sounds like you have a good onboarding system for that. But people do need handholding. Anytime we’re learning something new, it, you wanna be able to ask a question and get an answer, just like our perspective families do when when they’re asking questions about your school. So thank you so much for sharing. I’m curious, as a global marketer and enrollment expert, like what trends do you think will be important? heading into 2023? 


Timo: I wish I had a crystal ball that could tell it all to me. I would make so much money, right? Like it would just be one of those things if I knew, but I’d say a few things that I can think of is, I think school marketers and admissions teams in general are extremely busy. They wear multiple hats. We know, especially if you’re in a small school, you’re doing crisis coms, you’re setting up your welcome packs, you’re busy setting up interviews with your head of school, you’re trying to get references for students that you’re not sure if they’re gonna be a, a great fit for your school. You’re trying to take videos, you’re trying to. Make changes to your web. There’s just so much going on. Normally it’s a team of one, maybe two. Sometimes it’s even a it’s other stuff that’s just care taking the role. So no doubt that they’re busy. I think at the same time, the pressure from boards is becoming pretty strong on schools to drive admissions because it is a big income source. Times are a little bit tough out there. Things are expensive. Schools need the income. So I think the two things coming together, i e very busy teams with limited resources and school board expectations increasing is a challenge for next year. So I think what we’re already seeing is that our current schools, so schools who already work with us are asking for the product to evolve in a way to save them more time so that they can have the same amount of resources, but try and deliver more. So that’s probably from a product trend kind of thing, I think something that we’ll be we’re working on for the next year or two. How do you help the actual job be more efficient so that you can manage that? And then the second thing I think we’re seeing here in Australia, but we’re also seeing it in the uk and we’re seeing it in the us is that parent expectations are really increasing. And it’s a little bit to what we discussed before about parents almost want instant answers. They want to be able to find information really quickly. Let’s say for example I’m interested to know what your school’s class sizes and, you know, special, special needs policies might be. I wanna be able to find that information 11 o’clock at night when I’ve, that’s the only time I’ve got, I wanna be able to find it on your website. I don’t wanna have to send an email, wait for the next business day, maybe two business days before I get that response, because I’m in that moment now I’m making the decision. So I think that’s probably a trend as well as how do we narrow that gap of making information more accessible for parents just because their expectations are increasing. And then the final thing, I think. if you’re in a, especially if you’re in a very competitive area. So let’s say we’re in a metro area or in a medium sized city where you have two or three schools and it’s reasonably competitive. I think if one school is really well funded and they’re able to push the boundaries and make a bit more noise from a marketing point of view, I think it’s really important as a smaller school to find what makes you unique. You can’t necessarily compete with a massive budget for a big video or for a massive open day or something where you can recruit, a hundred families off one day. But if you find your magic ingredient and what makes you a part and you really hone down on that message, I think that’s such, such an important time for us to be doing that now with just the general state of the economy and things. I think it’s important to find a way to cut through if you’re a smaller school. 


Tara: Yeah. I love the idea of all three of these things Are interesting to follow, but I think the campaigns that you’re talking about is, it’s something that I totally agree with. I wanna talk about the admissions club. Oh yeah. Because my friend and co-host Aubrey have participated in this amazing series that Digistorm put together. I’d love to hear more about some of the takeaways that you had from that and how it relates specifically to what we’re talking about here, which is Gen Y and Gen z. 


Timo: Love that. Yeah, it was we, yeah, we put together this special web series. It is I think four to, was it 14 episodes? 13 episodes? I can’t even remember. It’s been it’s been a blurb, but there’s over 20 hours of short and practical videos that anybody who works in school marketing or admissions can watch and get a high level overview of a specific topic. So these topics are all things that you need in your modern. School marketing toolkit and yeah, Aubrey was kind enough to spend a lot of time with us and share some of her knowledge and she is super knowledgeable. So that was yeah, she added so so much value to, to it. I guess how we came about it was specifically because of this crossroads of the generations coming together. And we get a lot of questions from schools that already work with us in terms of how do I manage my social media, things that we don’t necessarily work on. But they have a lot of questions on social media on what’s the difference between s e m and s E O and PPP C and all these very technical digital terms. We find that we work with a lot of school marketers who are more traditionally inclined. So they’re really good with events, they’re really good with drafting communication. They can get their school into any local newspaper where they’re PR contacts. But the digital side of marketing is a little bit tougher for them. And it’s totally normal because it’s two very different types of marketing, right? So the idea for this was let’s help you get the tools you need, and then if you have the tools you need, you are able to choose which ones work best for your schools, and you can speak to gen X, Y, and Z really by combining these tools in a way. So in a strange way, because we can see the market is changing. So parents are changing what they want. We know that school marketers and anybody who works in admissions and driving admissions to a school probably need some different tools than they did 10 years ago. But it is very difficult to upskill. It’s so easy for academic staff to get personal development and get all those things. But for school marketing teams, it’s so much harder to get those personal development sessions or the budget to get it done, and they’re just too busy sometimes. So we wanted to do something super short, sharp, practical, and they didn’t know all the answers after at least they knew where to, what questions to ask to get some more information. 


Aubrey: I think it was a really well done web series because I know a lot of schools that either have marketers who have transitioned from TE being a teacher or in another role and they’re not quite sure what to do in marketing or, and especially with the ever-changing landscape of marketing as you’re talking about Gen Y, gen Z it’s constantly changing. And so to have a series like that gives them kind of actionable nuggets to take away I think was very beneficial for people. And plus it was fun to do and fun to watch. So I’m gonna switch gears a little bit. So through the lens of our podcast, we talk about mindfulness and how it applies to independent schools and marketing. So how do you define mindfulness and how do you use it in your personal and professional life? 


Timo: Yeah, so I think mindfulness for me is, it’s a head space. I think it’s a head space of, for me personally, and I think this would be very different for everyone, is it’s a head space of finding balance. I get overwhelmed if I have too many things going on and I’m one of those people that kind of frees up a little bit if it gets too crazy around me. And we all have our own way of dealing. How we feel when we get overwhelmed. So mindfulness for me is creating that balance, sorting out the chaos so that I can live life and be okay everywhere else. A few years ago, I didn’t realize at the time, but I think I got pretty close to a corporate burnout without really- just working so hard that you don’t realize that’s actually what’s happening until you get out of the situation. And I think one of the biggest takeaways I took after that, cuz time is such a, reflection is such a great teacher, right? Was that it’s okay to full your own cup if you think, especially if you have a family to look after. If you’ve got aging parents, if you’ve got kids that need to be taken everywhere. If you’ve got- trying to do a career, trying to get to gym. There’s just so much, there’s so much on everyone’s plate. I’ve only got two or three of those things on my plate. I’m exhausted when I get into bed every night. I think finding the mental space to tell yourself it’s okay to fool your own cup first so that you can do all of these other things. Creating that little space for you is really important. That’s that’s probably the biggest thing I took from the time where I pushed it a little bit too hard for a little bit too long. 


Tara: Thanks for sharing that. We are our big proponents of filling your own cup and sometimes that’s really hard to do. Sometimes I think habits die hard about. About treating yourself well, about feeling selfish when you’re doing that. And so the more we talk about it, yeah, the, I think one of the great things about having this podcast and bringing up this topic every couple of weeks is making it okay to do that. Cuz I know I don’t wanna stereotype or gender type. They talk about mom guilt a lot and the idea of just taking care of yourself is really important and, but hard for many of us to actually put into practice without feeling like we’re going the wrong way. So thanks for sharing that. I appreciate it very much. We are going to move into some rapid fire questions. Are you ready? 


Timo: I’m gonna try my best. Let’s see if I can do all of this.


Tara: Okay. If you, this is my favorite question. If you could put one book as mandatory reading on a high school curriculum, what would it be? 


Timo: I think the thing that’s lacking is financial education for most of us. I dunno if that’s in schools these days, but I know for sure it definitely wasn’t when I was in high school. I got gifted a book in my late twenties called The Richest Man in Babylon, and it was a story of parables, with financial lessons in them. There was still relevant, I think a hundred years ago and they still are today. And I wish that book was made compulsory reading in high school cuz it’s a fun storybook style thing, but you get so much from it and I probably would’ve made very different decisions in my early twenties if I had read that book. 


Aubrey: I love that financial literacy is like, when Tara and I did our episode and we said our, that was my thing too. I just got, yes, it’s so important. I don’t think anything was taught to me in high school. Certainly not that. So I wish I’d read that book as well. Now going on to another rapid fire question. What is one app you can’t live without? 


Timo: Yes. So, I turned 40 this year and I think I went through a little bit of a midlife crisis and I couldn’t afford a convertible, so I started going to the gym. And my gym app has just been like the one thing that’s been keeping me consistent and kept me engaged. I can see who’s gonna be in my class and I’ve become friends with a lot of the people we chase each other with our little leaderboard scores. And yeah, so my gym app at the moment is probably the one thing I, I really can’t live without. 


Tara: Is it a physical gym or is it like a Peloton app? 


Timo: Don’t tell anyone. But I go to CrossFit. I’m part of the cult. 


Tara: Oh my gosh. CrossFit. 


Aubrey: Okay. I did CrossFit. Yeah, I did CrossFit for a bit, but now I’m on Peloton, but I totally get CrossFit it’s so cool. So you have the workout of the day and all that sort of thing, like you- 


Timo: That’s it. That’s, that’s exactly it. And you can put your little scores in and I’m very lucky to go to a gym where we’re all kind of friends in a way and people are super supportive and we’re all chuck our ego in the bin when we walk in the door, which is really nice. So it’s yeah, it’s been a great environment and community to be a part of this year. 


Aubrey: That’s great. You’re gonna have a midlife crisis. That’s the one to have. Join the gym, get healthy.


Timo: I wish I could, I wish I could get the convertible to be fair, but I think- 


Tara: Okay. What are you reading right now? 


Timo: So funny enough, actually books on on mindfulness, which is which is interesting. I, my dad got me, my dad and I, so we obviously live in different count countries. And for my 40th birthday, he he ended up buying me a book that he was reading at the same time. So we’re kind of book clubbing across continents at the moment, which is cool. So it’s called The Courage to Be Disliked and it’s by two Japanese authors and it’s about, again, like giving yourself that mental space to free yourself from others’ expectations and so on. It’s that permission-based thing of you need to have your own space and that’s okay to have your own space. And it’s been really super interesting. So that’s the one. And then, I also, I’ve just started reading a book called The Happiest Man on Earth, and it’s won some some book prizes here in Australia. So I’m very keen to get into it. Only on chapter one or on chapter, maybe just into chapter two. And I think it’s gonna be a tough read, but I think it’s gonna be a very thought-provoking read. It’s about a Holocaust survivor. He’s just turned, he turned a hundred when he wrote the book and it’s about how he found happiness and kindness after what was obviously a very dark start to his life. So I think it’s gonna be a very confronting but very thought provoking book if I make my way through it. 


Tara: Yeah, those are great. So I just ordered the Happiest Man on Earth, actually just- just yesterday as a gift for someone in my family. And I don’t think my family listens to this podcast, so I think I’m safe there. But I’ve not heard of the other book, but I love the title, the Courage to Be Disliked. I definitely need to read that. That sounds cool.


Timo: Yeah, it’s pretty cool. And it’s they’ve got another one, I think it’s called The Courage to Be Happy. Which I haven’t read yet, but yeah, I’ll let you know how this one goes. It’s, I’m excited. Dad and I are gonna discuss it just before Christmas. I’ve got another two, three weeks to from recording today to, to get that done. 


Aubrey: I want my son to be in a book club with me when I’m older, just saying, my son better watch this podcast when he is older and be in a book club with me, cuz that’s the best thing ever I’ve ever heard. 


Timo: Took dad 20 years to convince me so- 


Aubrey: So I’ve got, I got a while is what I’m hearing. Oh my goodness. Alright, so what is one great piece of advice you’d like to leave us with? 


Timo: So I’m gonna steal this one from a friend who gave me really good advice, but yeah, do it as a pay it forward. So I have a friend who only really found her passion later in life and career-wise and everything else, and you could really tell that something had changed with her, the way that she approached life. 

And she just seemed such a happy person. And she said, she kind of discovered her beautiful, and the way she explained it was she started focusing on her strengths in each part of her life. So what made her a beautiful friend? What made her a beautiful wife? What made her a beautiful mom? And what made her a beautiful colleague at work? Or, what did she enjoy doing at work? And she said once she started focusing on her beautiful, in each of those kind of pieces of her life, everything just started blossoming from there cuz she stopped focusing on, other things that maybe she felt inadequate about and we all suffer with, comparing ourselves to others. And what is it imposter syndrome, I think that we face in tech and many other, kind of jobs and things. Yeah, I think I took a lot from that and I try and focus on the good and not the stuff that you can’t do all the time. And and so far it seems to be working for me and I hope it works for your viewers and listeners too. 


Tara: Thank you. Thanks so much, Timo. It’s been really awesome having you with us today. Thanks for everything that you’ve shared and for making me feel old. I appreciate that. 


Timo: I’m so sorry.


Aubrey: And inspiring us. 


Timo: It is the, no it’s been fun and thank you for bringing this to life. I think it’s such an important thing. It’s everybody is so busy to have it in this format and you’re able to listen to it on, your way to work in the morning or on your way to school, drop off or wherever you know you, it’s just so accessible. So thanks for doing it. It’s a very cool podcast and I love it. 


Aubrey: Thank you. 


Tara: Thank you. Where can people find you online, Timo? 


Timo: Yeah I’m on LinkedIn and it’s Timo Nieuwoudt – it’s t i m o and then Nieuwoudt is n i e u and there’s not a lot of us, so it should pop up then. Otherwise I believe it’ll be in the show notes as well. Or you can connect with either Tara or Aubrey and they’ll get us connected. No dramas at all. 


Aubrey: Yay. Thank you again. 


Timo: Thanks. Have a wonderful evening, and thanks for having me. 


Tara: Thank you.