36. Helping Women School Leaders Overcome Perfectionism and Procrastination with Rebecca Malotke-Meslin

Tara: Welcome to Mindful School Marketing. I’m Tara Claeys. 

Aubrey: And I’m Aubrey Burch. Today we’re joined by Rebecca Malotke-Meslin. Rebecca is the founder of Pleasantly Aggressive Coaching and Consulting, where she coaches women working in independent schools to confidently own their leadership. For the past 14 years, she has served independent schools in New Jersey and Illinois, leading enrollment management, financial aid, marketing, and communications. She is passionate about empowering women. In organizations to eliminate barriers and reduce biases in order to create more inclusive spaces. Welcome Rebecca. 

Rebecca: Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to be- to be a part of the show after listening quite a bit, what is that like? I’ve been a long time listener, first time caller. So I’m excited. 

Tara: Wonderful. Thank you. Thanks for being a listener. We appreciate that. And we’re so glad that you’re joining us today. Can you start out by telling us a little bit more about yourself and your background? 

Rebecca: Sure. As you said, I’ve been working in schools for about 14 years, specifically in enrollment management, communications, marketing, but actually my background is in women’s and gender studies and sociology. So my passion, my love has always been the underpinnings of gender, race, class and sexuality, and how that plays within our spaces as leaders. And so I’ve always combined that background, my educational background with the work in nonprofits and the work in schools. And over time I just realized within our industry, there seemed to be this great need to really develop the women leaders around me. Being one of those people who came up through the ranks and admissions started in a entry level position and then moved on to become an enrollment director. I saw a lot of women around me also wanting to do something similar, but not necessarily having the guidance that they needed because there were so few women leading at the very top of our schools. After looking around for several years, I said maybe I’m supposed to do this work. Maybe this work is for me to do, so yeah, so hence pleasantly aggressive got off the ground which I’ll tell you a little story. If you wanna hear the story about the name, which I usually get a lot of people asking, what’s that all about? When I first started at the school that I’m at right now, actually the head of school was gonna be exiting. So I already knew when I got hired that he was gonna be leaving. And so we worked together for about six months and as he was leaving, I thought, you know what, I’m gonna ask him some candid questions and try to get some candid feedback before he leaves cuz I thought he’s got nothing to lose, he’ll be honest with me. And so I asked him, do you think I have what it takes to be a head of school? And he said, yes you’re pleasantly aggressive and I was thrilled. I thought that was a great description of me and I trusted him enough to know that he meant that sincerely. But what I really loved about it was that it was who I was authentically. That was, I’m an enthusiastic person. I have a lot of energy. I’m excited. I get excited about a lot of things, and at the same time, I’m very determined. I’m very passionate and that can come off as aggressive to some people, but because I’m, it’s the two sides of me, that I pulled together and it just made sense. And with this business, I’m really trying to not encourage necessarily everybody to be everyone else to be pleasantly aggressive, but really to find whatever their authentic leadership style is. And maybe if you’re a little less aggressive and wanna be a little more, I’ll help you get there. So that’s how that name was born. But as I said, I’m just a really enthusiastic and generally happy person. I bring a lot of energy into a room. I love people, so I just get excited to be around people, but fun fact about me. I, I have a bowling league. I started a bowling league in my neighborhood, ladies only Tuesday nights in the neighborhood. It’s been a blast. I love to bowl, but I have a husband, I have two sons, 13 and 10 and we live in the suburbs of Chicago. And it’s a great, we’re a Midwestern family and we love it here. 

Tara: That’s great. I can sense your enthusiasm and, and also your Midwestern accent. and I wanted-

Rebecca: Yes, yes. My mom calls it the Detroit nasal twang, cuz I’m from Detroit originally. Yes, that’s what it is. 

Tara: I, I wanna ask, I wanna go a little bit on a tangent about your name a little bit more because I’m fascinated by the name and also the fact that the term aggressive, and I know this might, I don’t wanna offend anyone, but like that term is something that is applied to a woman. But do you think that a man would ever be called pleasantly aggressive? Like there are, there are some other terms I think that people use for women, cuz we’re not expected to be assertive. And so I wonder if that’s something that you face also, and if that’s because you are focused on working with women, if that’s something that you thought about or how you feel about that comment.

Rebecca: Yeah. So I love that you asked, is that something we would say to men, right? Because there’s been this more recent development of the whole people asking women to smile. And there’s this backlash don’t ask me to smile or don’t ask me to be something to please you. So that, even that pleasantly piece, it’s almost a little tongue in cheek too. Like I don’t have to be, I don’t have to attach pleasant to be aggressive and it’s- it has a negative connotation specifically in women, but this is also a little bit of a reclaiming of that, right? Like when we take a word, cuz words are so incredibly powerful and we take a word like aggressive and we make people think more deeply about it. And that’s also what I wanted to do with that name, because the work I do with women is thinking critically about those descriptors. What have you been called in the past positive and negative? How did that make you feel in that space? And those times where you’re- I’m not going to apologize for being aggressive. I’m not going to apologize for being assertive. But for a lot of women, it takes a long time to get there and they are apologizing for things that are inherently who they are. I would also say that in professional spaces, the definition of what’s acceptable was not defined by women. It was defined by white men. And because of that, we have to work hard to redefine it and redefine what is acceptable in professional spaces and what is right and, and, and open that up a lot more. So when I use the term aggressive, I mean it, and it’s in, in all its forms. And that might be off putting to some people. But I, but that’s a great opportunity to have a conversation about it. How do you feel about women who are aggressive and I’ll be honest. I have people in my, in, I’ve worked with people who have complained to me, to my supervisor about me being too aggressive. And it, again, it opened up a great conversation about what’s really going on there. What, what makes me seem so aggressive? What am I doing? And if a male were doing that, would he get complained about by that same employee? These are all, but it’s all about creating that dialogue around the language that we use and how powerful it is and how it impacts our performance. 

Aubrey: Thank you so much for sharing, because I’m just thinking about how I grew up. And these were not conversations that were had around the table. We weren’t saying, what does that word mean? And if you’re called it, how does it make you feel or what does that dialogue that needs to happen afterwards? So I’m really excited as a mom of a seven year old daughter that these conversations are happening right now. I think it’s really important and I love that you’re challenging people to, to question, like how, what have you been called? Like how does that make you feel? What dialogue is this? What does that mean? What is that triggering in someone else? I think those are all important questions to ask. I’m curious because we do work with so many school leaders. And I work with many women school leaders. What are the main issues that you’re finding that women are facing in their jobs in independent schools right now? Could you talk a little bit more about that? 

Rebecca: Yeah. And I think, a lot of what I see in women in schools is no different than a lot of under industries in a lot of ways. I think the context of schools add some additional challenges. And I’ll talk a little bit about that, but for me, what I see in a lot of my clients and a lot of women that I’ve mentored over the years and I work with a lot of high achieving women. So really smart women who are high achievers and almost always, they’re struggling with perfectionism. Now, some of them have already identified that as a, as an issue for them and others don’t even see that that’s what’s happening. And I will say there’s not as much research and writing about perfectionism in adults. We see it more in children and I’ll say I’ve worked in schools for gifted children for the last 10 years and gifted children often struggle with perfectionism. So when looking for research on perfectionism in adult women, I found a lot on kids, but really it’s transferable in so many ways. And what I always think about is if you haven’t been able to admit that you have this perfectionist tendency, then you can’t start to dismantle it. So how, what does that look like for women in schools? It looks like we spend an exorbitant amount of time on tasks that don’t require that much time and attention. And so the direct correlation to leadership is that while we are perseverating over something we’re here, right? We’re moving, we’re running in place, if you will. And the men around us, aren’t doing that. So guess what? They’re moving and we’re running in place. And so when we talk about this gap in leadership, I think there’s all these little ways in which we hurt ourselves. Now it’s not to say that we’re at fault. I wanna be real clear about that. I don’t want women to ever feel like you are the cause of your own demise or you are the cause, right? We are talking about systems of patriarchy. We are talking about things that have been in place that are way beyond us, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t things that we can’t take a hold of and get a grip on and help ourselves with. And that sense of agency. So with perfectionism, identifying those spaces in which we perseverate. And the really interesting piece about it is not just that perseveration or, rewriting and rewriting that email or that ad copy or that website design or whatever it is that you’re working on is actually sometimes procrastination. And I think that’s really- they seem like opposite ends of a spectrum, but really they’re very closely connected for a lot of folks. So if you think about procrastination as a space where I’m avoiding something, I think a lot of people think of procrastination as laziness like you just don’t wanna do something. You don’t wanna get something done. So you’re just avoiding it. I think for a lot of perfectionists, they procrastinate because they know that it’s going to be an intensive process for them. They know what, that they already know what that looks like and they’re, they would rather avoid it than go headlong into it. And so they keep sidestepping in it. I think those two things- a lot of folks need to take a deep dive and to look at how it’s affecting them on a daily basis, because it’s those minutes in your day that add up quickly that really prevent you from making progress forward. So again, admitting is like number one, but I would say so perfectionism, really top of the list, you know, and I know we’re all familiar with imposter syndrome, right? Like we’re all women, every woman knows that term. A lot of women experience it and we’re still, I, it’s frustrating cuz it’s like, all right, we’ve been talking about this for 20 years now. Like how are we gonna fix it? How are we gonna change this? And again, that’s part of the reason I’m doing this work. But when I see these women who are super high achieving yet still don’t see it in themselves. They still don’t see how capable they are. And they always feel like there’s something more they can learn. Again, circles back to perfectionism, but there’s something more I can learn. I can do a better job of this and not being able to see where that good enough space is. And so we waste a lot of time relearning or tweaking something because we think that we’re not quite there yet. And so that imposter syndrome is oh, I could never do that cause I’m not there yet. I can’t be that leader cuz I’m not there yet. And helping women recognize, no, you actually are there- you’re there. You’re doing it. So one of the exercises I do with women is saying do you consider yourself a leader? And it’s amazing how many women who I know are leaders do not raise their hand. They don’t see themselves as leaders cuz maybe their title is not director or maybe their title. So, so it’s that it’s not a title, right? It’s a headspace, it’s a mindset. And how can we help you shift that mindset to a place where you see yourself as leaderly? Because if you don’t believe, who else will? So that’s, again, some of those, how do we first admit now I’m admitting that I am a leader to help combat some of that imposter syndrome that they’re working with. So I would say those are like two of the things that I first hit when I’m working with a client and that I see just in a lot of women and again, perfectionism doesn’t plague every woman. But I see a lot. 

Tara: Yeah, I love that. And I we spoke with someone one of our first podcasts was with someone who does enneagrams and I’m an enneagram one, which is the perfectionist. So I can really identify with what you’re saying. And one of the things I wanted to follow up on about perfectionism is perfectionists tend to dwell on their mistakes. And, you talk about imposter syndrome, but it’s not just that it’s that, I think about the things that I’ve done wrong and it it holds me back a bit and it really it also pushes me forward to not make those mistakes again. So how does a leader take those mistakes and put them in a place where they learn from them instead of using them internally to to be afraid to do things? 

Rebecca: So we call that ruminating and I use that term in particular because it’s an indication of- rumination is non-productive, right? So I think we often feel like if we beat ourselves, and if we think long enough and hard enough about it, we can prevent those mistakes from happening again. And that’s different from learning from our mistakes. So being able to quickly identify what the mistake was and ask ourselves, how can I avoid this in the future? I think even just phrasing it as a question, what was the mistake? Answer the question. What is the solution or how do I prevent this? Find a solution, answer that question and then move on. But what we often do is just have this running dialogue of negative self-talk, which is totally different, right? Negative self-talk is, oh man, what is wrong with me? Why did I do that? I totally screwed that up. I can’t believe I did that. I knew better. I shouldn’t have hit the sun button so fast and it’s just a berating of ourselves. And it’s self-flagellation like, we just think that if we berate ourselves enough, it’ll become productive at some point, but it never does. And again, we get caught on that hamster wheel. So asking yourself some key questions and having those ready to go when the negative self-talk starts up and saying, okay, I made a mistake, how could I have avoided this? What does that look like? Write it down, get it outta your head, get it on paper, whatever you need to do it in a voice memo, something, talk to a friend about it, but get it outta your head. And then saying the words oh well, and moving on. I would say that’s probably one of the hardest things for women to do is to just say, oh because it sounds flippant. It sounds like we don’t care. And what do women do really well? We care a lot, right? About others. About what others think of us and about what our mistakes might have looked like and what that makes us look like. So the idea of saying, oh, well is a total opposite of that. What we think is caring deeply, but the truth is that, oh, is nothing more than saying I need to move on from this. And it’s no longer productive for me to sit and ruminate about it. But that takes a lot of practice. I’m not saying that’s, it sounds it’s simple. It’s not easy. Meaning the steps to do that are simple. It’s not easy because we have to practice it over and over again. In our minds, on paper, with a colleague, with friends. And I think having a little bit of an accountability partner, even if it’s not a coach or a mentor, but an accountability partner, who’s somebody who can be like, I’m so proud of you for like, you totally stuck to your guns and you’re not ruminating about this. And you made a mistake and you kept moving. We need we do need sometimes that external piece too, to help motivate us to keep on that track because that fear of failing and making mistakes is really strong. It’s a really strong feeling. And you have to have equally strong feelings to counteract it.

Tara: Yeah, I love the phrase, Aubrey and I were on a retreat and we learned this phrase which is when you hear someone saying something negative about themselves or someone else, but mostly about yourself is to say, to treat yourself as a friend and to say, I wouldn’t talk to my friend like that. When you find yourself in that situation, if your friend made that mistake, what would you say to them? I find that to be an effective strategy for me. 

Rebecca: Absolutely. And I was just having a conversation with a client about this, and we were talking about the negative self talk. I said, would you talk to your employee that way? So when you hear that negative thought, the next question you ask yourself is would I talk to my employee this way? And if the answer’s no, right? And as a leader, it was really a conversation about leadership. How can you lead others when you can’t lead yourself right now? Like you need to work on leading yourself in this space. And that means positive self talk for you. And for everyone around you. 

Aubrey: Thank you for this. I think it’s, this is such an important conversation. Like I’m really jazzed and excited about this because I work with heads of school all the time and I’ll be in a conversation and the amount of I’m sorry’s apologies that come forward oh, I’m sorry. But there was no reason to apologize, right? There was no reason to apologize or they’ll perceive they’ve made a mistake. But it really wasn’t a mistake. It’s only their perception of what a mistake is and they beat themselves up over it. So the tactics you gave there are really helpful. In addition, I love the, I love how you explained like perfectionism and procrastination, because a lot of times, I, these people are amazing. They’re doing fantastic work, they’re doing life changing work, but they’ll get hung up on projects. Like I meet with them as accountability, like weekly and I’m like, okay, here was our list of to-dos, why didn’t this to get done? And they’ll be like, okay well, this is like- let’s get it done. Like we gotta move forward. Like I always talk about B minus or B effort. Doesn’t need to be A plus. And I think that’s what you’re speaking to right there is we will get held up in if we let ourselves. So it’s constantly being able to say, that’s good enough. Let’s move forward. I’m curious, like how, what sort of especially for that apology piece, like how do you talk to clients when, when they’re kind- cause I think as a, as women, like I grew up apologizing. I, oh, I still have to catch myself. I’m so sorry, but I didn’t do anything wrong. Why am I still apologizing? So how do you handle that piece? What recommendations would you give for women who are struggling with that particular piece? 

Rebecca: And again, accountability to partners are great, especially if you find yourself doing it in a workspace. I know that the workspace that I’m in currently I sometimes sound like I’m scolding people , but I’m really like please don’t apologize for this. I don’t wanna, I don’t want you to apologize. You didn’t do anything wrong and because it needs to be said, we need to be able to tell other women, cuz they might not be hearing that from anyone else that there’s no need to apologize for that. For an interruption or for something that isn’t even their fault, or for just speaking their mind, sharing an opinion. And it’s just amazing that’s still happening, but I think what, what I try to do is take a big, giant step back. And this is where my women’s studies and sociology background comes in is to say, this is not your fault. You didn’t just wake up one day and decide to apologize for everything, the conditioning and the socialization that we’ve had as women in particular- to not take up space, to not have strong opinions or strong emotions, right? Like we’ve been conditioned out of that for the most part. And so you are working in my case, working against 42 years of conditioning that’s telling me that I should apologize, be small, not have an opinion, be quiet. All of these things. And I am, I’ve been a feminist since the day I came out of my mother’s womb. Like my mom will tell you I have always been very strong and very confident in who I am. Even I do it. So what that tells me is that for women who don’t have this existence that I have right now, we have even further to go, but women are smart. So I give them that background of understanding of why it is like, think of all of the media messages you get on a daily basis. Think of the podcast that you listened to and the TV shows the magazines that, and then the people around you and the news. There are so many messages that are telling us one thing. So when you try to combat that and do something different, it feels like you’re running into a little bit of offense. And so I think it’s that consciousness piece. If you are aware, of all those systems at play, and then you think about your place in that system and how you’re also contributing to it. You have to have that consciousness to say, oh my gosh, I’m doing it again. Oh my gosh, I’m doing it again. And it never goes away. I don’t know any woman that’s fully been able to say nope, I don’t do that anymore. It rears its ugly head on occasion, but it’s an automaticity, right? It’s just an, it’s an automatic thing that we’re doing. So we have to stop it and we have to build new habits in. So how can we build in a new habit? How is there something else we can say? So that means we have to practice the way that we use language in a different way in meetings. And so if you have regular meetings, that’s a great opportunity to try things out. So if you’re used to apologizing in meetings you’re used to, maybe you don’t say as much as you want to in meetings, right? If you have a standing meeting with a group of people or with your boss, use that as an opportunity to practice. Because you’re not going to be able any right, everything we teach- practice doesn’t make perfect practice makes permanent. The more I do it, the more permanent it becomes for me. And I swap out that automaticity for one negative thing to a positive thing. But I will say that’s what makes people uncomfortable is like trying it out so they could, they’re comfortable with it in their heads, like thinking I, I don’t wanna apologize anymore. But then trying to actually practice it is a little bit more challenging. So giving clients. The task of saying, okay, what is the thing that you say that you don’t wanna say anymore? What are we gonna replace it with? And I want you to start practicing it. Now I will say to kickstart it very few people, most people are really pleasantly surprised at how easy it is those first few times. It’s the long term sustainability, that’s harder, but it’s motivating cuz you’re like, I didn’t even apologize today. And it and then celebrating that tiny win, cuz it seems silly, but it’s not. And what I also wanna impart on women is that, there’s, I’m sure there’s some great saying that I’m probably terribly butchering right now, but like when you stand up for yourself, you’re actually standing up for all women. Like when you make that change for yourself, you just gave permission to every woman in that room to do the exact same thing. That is, so that is so empowering to think that this change that I made for myself that makes me feel great. Also look around me. The other women were watching. And now they might be empowered to do the same thing. That’s how we make change. That’s how we change the industry. That’s how we change a culture. But it does start with one person, even though sometimes it feels like it’s just, you’re just one person. It really does- it’s just that one tiny droplet that really can make big wave.

Tara: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I, it’s very important for everybody to listen to for women to listen to what you’re saying, cuz I think it, it takes a while to sink in and everything that you’ve talked about is related to the concept of mindfulness, because we talk about that on this podcast. I think all of the things that we’ve covered so far up to this point have related to being mindful. But in terms of applying this specifically to school marketing professionals and, and women, but school marketing professionals of any gender how do you, would you apply mindfulness to be to leadership in schools?

Rebecca: So when I think about school marketing in particular too, there’s so much- what you do is so public. So what we do as marketers is so public it’s literally on social media, it’s literally on our websites. It’s the thing that everybody sees that we put out there. And so it, it requires and garners a huge sense of scrutiny, right? From the public, from your board members, from your parents, right? There’s a typo, you’re gonna hear about it 10 ways to Sunday. And so in some ways that perfectionism and that those things are you’re gonna be more susceptible to them. The mindfulness piece comes in because we have to pause and self reflect. We have to pause and say that I am still human and recognizing that on a daily basis. And as humans, we will make mistake. But if you don’t stop and you to think who am I in this space and how am I contributing in a positive way? And how can I reflect on a regular basis about the positive that I’m putting out there instead of just focusing on the negative and the possible mistakes that you’re making to your point earlier, Tara, you have to be able to see the positive in those spaces. And that can be challenging. And I, again, I don’t wanna be flippant or say that it’s super easy to just say, oh yeah, I’m just gonna be, everybody thinks that’s very pollyannish, right? To just see the positive, but if you don’t accept those wins and you don’t take the time to reflect on those successes then when you do get the call from the board member, who says you spelled somebody’s name wrong on that post on social media it’s gonna hit you really hard and it’s gonna make you feel like a failure. And you’re not, that’s the farthest thing from it. You are human and you made a mistake. Helping women and men, but women especially in the space of that school marketing space and school leadership space recognize that. But I would also say that mindfulness takes time and it’s that one piece of time that we don’t often want to carve out. But I love this is why I love this podcast because I think it really does allow people to listen and learn and multitask a little bit, and that we’re not multitask, but kill two birds with one stone. And that I’m learning about this mindfulness piece and also gaining some really great skills and insight. So I love that this you’re creating a space for people to stop and reflect and be mindful of their practices. Because that is, that’s what I want for my clients too. 

Aubrey: Thank you. I appreciate that. It really is a lot of mindset and having that positive mindset because I really, I’m thankful that you brought that up because I’m just thinking of all these wonderful heads and school leaders out there who, they’re gonna burn out super fast or tank, especially this year. My goodness, like the past two years, actually. Yeah. Like you’re gonna make a mistake it’s gonna happen. And so it’s separating yourself from the action. And not making that mean that you’re less worthy or less of a person. So I appreciate that. We’re gonna head into the questions that we always ask our guests, and we’re excited to hear your answers. Are you ready? I am ready. Awesome. So what are the most important things you do to grow personally and professionally? 

Rebecca: So I need a new term because I’m an avid reader, but I don’t read, I listen to audio books. So like I’m an added listener of audiobooks. So I, I will say podcast. And so I’m an auditory learner. I I’m a very slow reader, so I need auditory input. So podcast and audible and audio books are the way in which I continue to challenge myself and learn about new topics. I’m, a couple years ago, two years ago, I set up myself on a mission to read or listen to as many books by women of color. I was like, I’m going to seek out authors that give me a perspective that is very different from my own, and I wanna learn from them. So I read a bunch of memoirs. I’ve read a bunch of, self-help books that were by women of color and it was a transformative experience for me. I would say that’s one piece and that tends to be in the professional realm, but also in the personal realm. And then I would also say we just finished out mental health awareness month, but my therapist. I see a therapist on a regular basis. It is one of the things that has helped me. So immensely grow as a human being and as an individual. And I talk about it a lot because there’s still, again, a huge stigma, I think, against it. And especially for women, we don’t like to ask for help. And so I think that asking for help in that space in particular can be very scary. And it’s just, I share it with everybody because I really feel like it’s helped me in so many ways. And then next to that, I would say are my friendships. I have some really amazing friends in my life who are great cheerleaders and supports. But making sure I carve out time for them which is our bowling league. And in other ways allows me to continue to grow as a person, as a mother, as a friend, as you know, in all of those, in all of those spaces. 

Tara: I love that. I share many of those things. I just met with my therapist this morning, so thanks for sharing that. Okay, we’re gonna move into rapid fire questions. The first one is if you could put one book as mandatory reading on the high school curriculum, what would it be? 

Rebecca: The Confidence Code, a book specifically about women and confidence and why we fall behind men in that regard. And I think it would be hugely powerful for high school boys and girls to read that, and non-binary children to read that and understand more about why there is a gap in confidence. 

Aubrey: Oh, I’m excited. I have two young kids. So this will be on their list. What is one app you couldn’t live without? 

Rebecca: Audible. 

Tara: All right. And what are you reading right now? 

Rebecca: I’m reading a great book called ,The Sum of Us. S U M Sum of Us by Heather McGee. And it’s really about the economics of racism. It’s a historical perspective. But mind blowing history, untold history for a lot of white folks in particular. But really again, a great read. If you want to learn more about how economics and race intersect. 

Aubrey: Thank you. And what is one great piece of advice you’d like to leave us with?

Rebecca: So I said it earlier, but being a leader is not a job title. It’s a mindset. And I think we would see a lot more women leading if we shifted it from a set of criteria that are bestowed upon you. And instead saw it as something that came from within. 

Tara: Thank you. Excellent. Rapid fire questions to the point.

Aubrey: Yay. 

Tara: Where can people find you online, Rebecca?

Rebecca: My website is pleasantlyaggressive.com and I’m @pleasantlyaggressive pretty much everywhere. So with the exception of LinkedIn, I have a Pleasantly Aggressive page, but if you wanna connect with me individually, it’s Rebecca Malotke-Meslin and I’m on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn predominantly for work. And yeah I’d love folks to follow me and reach out through the website if they have questions. 

Tara: Thank you so much. 

Aubrey: Thank you so much. 

Rebecca: Thanks for having me 

Tara: So glad you joined us. Have a great day. Bye. 

Rebecca: You too. Bye.