13. Diversity, Equity, & Inclusion in Independent School Marketing with Valaida Wise and Jen Cort

In this episode, we talk with Val and Jen about the importance of diversity, equity, and inclusion in independent schools, what it means to practice DEI, justice, and access without being performative, and how working with a consultant can help independent schools be leaders of change.

About Valaida Wise and Jen Cort:

Dr. Valaida L. Wise is the President of Dr. Valaida Wise Consulting, LLC. The firm supports schools and other organizations in the areas of diversity, equity and inclusion, governance, and leadership. She is also a faculty member in the Graduate School of Education at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, MD where she teaches diversity, equity, inclusion, and issues of social justice. Her research interests center on exploring the lived experience of families of color in independent schools and the application of a broaching framework in organizations. An educator for more than 25 years, Dr. Wise has served as the Head of School of several independent schools in the Washington DC region. Additionally, she serves on the board of several professional organizations and independent schools.

Jen Cort is a diversity, equity, inclusion, and justice consultant working with schools and organizations in multiple countries. As an educator and clinical social worker, Jen has served as an assistant head of lower school, head of a middle school, and senior administrator as well as a counselor in lower, middle, and upper schools and private practice. Jen works with groups to create sustainable and systemic change and to live out their missions regarding diversity and inclusion. ​ Jen has keynoted at national conferences, hosts a diversity institute, is a frequent contributor to publications, and her work has been quoted in Racing Toward Diversity, Insights, NAIS Independent Journal, Washington Post, Boston Globe, New York Times, and more. Jen is the host of an internationally syndicated podcast Third Space With Jen Cort.

Show Transcript

Tara: Welcome to Mindful School marketing. I’m Tara Claeys. 

Aubrey: I’m Aubrey Bursch. Today we’re joined by Val Wise and Jen Cort. Dr. Val L. Wise is the president of Dr. Val Wise Consulting, LLC. The firm supports schools and other organizations in the areas of diversity, equity, and inclusion, governance, and leadership.

She is also a faculty member in the graduate school of education at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, Maryland, where she teaches diversity, equity, & inclusion, and issues of social justice. Her research interests center on exploring the lived experiences of families of colors in independent schools and the application of a broaching framework in organizations, an educator for more than 25 years, Dr.

Wise has served as Head of School of several independent schools in the Washington, DC region. Additionally, she serves on the board of several professional organizations and independent schools. 

Tara: We’re also joined by Jen Cort. Jen is a diversity, equity, and inclusion, and justice consultant working with schools and organizations in multiple countries. As an educator and clinical social worker,

Jen has served as an assistant head of lower school, head middle school, and senior administrator, as well as a counselor in lower, middle, and upper schools and private practice. Jen works with groups to create sustainable and systemic change and to live out their missions regarding diversity and inclusion.

Jen has keynoted at national conferences, hosts a diversity institute, is a frequent contributor to publications and her work has been quoted and Racing Toward Diversity, Insights, NAIS Independent Journal, Washington Post, Boston Globe, the New York Times, and more. Jen is also the host of an internationally syndicated podcast,

Third Space with Jen Cort. Wow. We are honored to have you guys here. I feel intimidated by all these credentials, but we are so fortunate to have you here. Thanks for joining us. Welcome. 

Val: Thank you for having us here. I’m so excited to work with my friend, Jen, and to see you all as well. I think this is an amazing opportunity to talk about something.

Jen: Thank you. And I’m so excited to be on this side of the mic though, I’m a little nervous, but I’m also so happy anytime I get to be in any space with the three of you. So this is really fun. 

Aubrey: I would say it’s going to be fun and I’m really thank you so much for being here. Now I would love for you to tell us a little bit more about yourselves and especially how you got started in DEI.

Val: I don’t know, I like to start just because I’m older than Jen. So I get to do that. Actually, my father was a civil rights lawyer during the sixties and seventies. And so he was on the same panel that worked with bringing down the Ku Klux Klan during that time. So it’s been kind of in our DNA,

in my part of my family while I was an educator and doing teaching in the classroom and then doing a Head of School, it was always drawing me back to what’s the lived experience of families in my school of color families like mine. And I raised three children, two of them African-American boys, and I’ve seen my boy and I’ve heard about my boy being taken off a bus and frisked by police officers and knowing that we have to change this, and he’s still impacted by this to this day. So I had to do something in order to be involved in and help the world be better for other little black boys. 

Jen: And I too feel like this has been part of my narrative since the beginning, my parents were hippies and they raised us on a commune and social justice was the most continuous thread in all of our conversations.

My dad was a teacher for those who are incarcerated and my mom started a shelter for abused women and that translated through their lives. And I went into education and social work because I really wanted to help kids see themselves as their full beings. And then I’ve always focused on diversity, but I thought as a white person, as a middle-aged, middle-class woman, like what do I have to lend to this conversation?

And then I sought out just amazing practitioners who were friends and allies and they all said, we need everyone in this conversation. And I feel really honored when schools invite me to be part of that work.

Tara: That’s amazing. I feel inspired and I think also when you think about, especially, we are all women who are past the young stage of our lives and you start to think about what is your purpose in life, and it’s really wonderful to have people who have made this their life mission and to make the world a better place.

So we’re, again, we’re so excited and honored to have you here today. Let’s talk a little bit about what DEI or diversity, equity, and inclusion, what does that mean? And how does it apply to independent schools specifically?

Jen: So when I think about DEI and independent schools, there’s diversity, which a lot of times heads of schools will say, we have diversity here and I’ll say, what does that mean?

And they’ll go, you know, and, it’s no, you need to say it. And what they’re really typically referring to is some racial diversity typically in the student body only. And so it’s really about the demographics. And the numbers are so important. We need to be really mindful and attentive.

But it’s so much more than that. If we expand out, we think about equity, everyone getting what they need. Not everyone getting the same thing and inclusion is really like inviting people into the school. And I think schools have done a great job of that for the most part of inviting people in, but where we’re really missing is helping them to feel like they belong in our communities and they get to show up as their full and authentic selves and have an understanding that who they are impacts the group and the group is impacted by them. And that only happens through focusing on justice, which is breaking down the barriers in between, and independent schools, I think have a a unique calling, all people have a calling to do to engage in these conversations in schools, particularly do. Independent schools, I think have an even deeper calling because they’re founded on creating a different learning environment and trying to really position themselves so that each kid has a school that works for them, at least that’s the hope. So that means that the school needs to really support them to show up as their full selves.

Val: I have to agree with you so much with that, Jen, and what a beautiful way to, to define all those terms and to add to the terms, you hear Jen talk about social justice all the time.

She’ll usually say DIJ because for her justice has to be part of that. So social justice implied in that is activism. So what we hope is that people aren’t passively doing these things., they’re actually being active and engaged. So independent schools have an opportunity to actually rewrite the wrongs of the past because most independent schools, I would dare say, more than 60% were really started because of trying to keep others out for a variety of reasons. If it was not race, it was intellectually, it was religion, whatever those things are. So now we’re actually bringing them in so many people add to DEI, J, they also add an A for access. So thinking about how do we engage and bring people in together to be part of this entire community that will change the way the world looks going forward and the way the world feels going forward.

And I always think about independent schools as little speedboats, like public school systems and charter school systems are like these huge, massive, like tankers that take a long time to turn, but independent schools can be quick in a turning, they can learn quickly. They can innovate. They can become, in fact, that’s how they were founded is innovative to have like little incubators. And if we can make sure that we have that piece right, then we will have children who, students who come out who are change agents, who hadn’t come from access to understand social justice and who can really make a mark on the world that’s unique and that qualifies them then to lead in this area. And so that’s a really important part.

And this is why I’m working with independent schools is so important. 

Aubrey: Wow. Thank you so much for sharing. I love the talk about the boats. Like you’re able to navigate a smaller boat probably quicker than a larger one in some cases. So I’m curious. When we’re thinking about schools and this is a marketing podcast.

We’re seeing a lot of schools trying to include, DEI on their websites and social media, as we’re thinking about schools and how that plays out, especially this past year, what are some common mistakes that, that schools are making and, what recommendations would you make?

Val: You know, I’m going to borrow this from Jen, because I think she quoted this really well. She has an article about what does it look like on your website? And she says, and I’m just borrowing this from you, Jen, that if you Google your name and diversity, if it takes you two pages to get there, then you’ve done something wrong.

If you can’t find diversity, we were doing a research project the other day, and there was nowhere on the website about diversity, but the school is maintaining, that it is being a diverse place. The point is that it needs to be upfront. And what we recognize now is we understand that there’s pushback now.

So it is much more, you are, putting yourself out there if you really own this work. But what we’re hoping is that you’re brave, the schools are brave about this and not hide what they’re doing, but actually put it out in front so that we can change the narrative to say it doesn’t matter what the rest of the world says.

We’re going to put our heads down and we’re going to get to work and getting to work means putting it in the forefront. So on the front page, talk about what you’re doing and how you’re doing it, and then keeping that updated constantly, so that the rest of the environment is, and the rest of those individuals who are watching, what you’re doing and can own that and learn from what you’re doing as well.

Tara: Is there any risk of that being perceived as performance? 

Val: What a great question. And absolutely you can’t, if you’re not doing anything, if you’re just using the words, then it is performative. So everything has to be, that’s why I really liked where there’s, some schools are saying, putting their strategic plan up there and saying, this is the date that we want to do it.

So they’re holding themselves accountable. So it’s not just, we’ve got some words here. We’ve got words, we’re action. And then we have, when we’re going to get it done and how you can measure it, how you can hold us accountable. That’s brave. And that’s, what’s going to change the way people perceive not only independent schools, but this work in general.

Jen: Yeah. And if I were to build on that, I would think about how, in particular, your question about whether it’s performative, I hope schools will be aspirational and reflective on their websites. I think for a long time, schools got away, being more aspirational and also vague, like we care about diversity here,

well that means something different to absolutely every person, including the people who want to pretend it doesn’t matter. And so I think we have to be really clear about what we mean, what letters we’re using, why we’re using them, our data and I also find two other mistakes of schools often make is if you have two mission statements, if you have a school mission statement and a diversity mission statement, you are creating optionality because I don’t have to pay attention to the diversity mission statement if I don’t feel that applies to me. And then when I’m doing backward work and I’m sure Val’s having similar experiences when we’re dealing with schools that are having issues and we look backward, it’s everyone claiming that the school was the school for them. And when you look at the wording, it was. And so we’re not clear, we’re not clear about who we really are and who we are not.

And then also the pictures, please update your pictures and don’t have the same child in all the pictures or the same teacher. Be reflective and aspirational at the same time. I was working with the school recently where I was meeting with some alums and the, this one young man who had been out of the school for six years, his picture is still on the lower school webpage.

That’s not okay. And that makes him feel like he is, I mean, that is performative. So update the pictures. 

Tara: Yeah, I see that a lot too. Or yeah, an intentional drive to have diversity in your photos when you don’t have diversity in your school, doesn’t really work. It sounds like, just the wealth of experience that we heard of in your introduction and I know you work with schools a lot, so I’m curious because I know not just in schools, but all over America, corporations are hiring consultants to help them to implement strategies, mission statements, policies, and to implement that in real life and not just make it a performance. And so it’s become very very common for consultants to be doing this type of work. When you work with schools, can you talk a little bit about the role that you play in this process and how you help schools?

Val: So maybe I could start, I have two roles typically. One is, I’m a qualitative researcher by trade. So I like to go in and do what we call an equity audit. So helping schools know where they are in the stream of time. Who are they reflecting? What are their families feel like? What’s the lived experience of a person, of a marginalized group within that school?

What are your documents look like? The HR forms and your admissions process. What does that all look like through an equity lens? And gathering all of that information, we do a variety of assessments through that information and then giving it back to you saying this is who you are like a mirror, where do you want to be?

And then creating the strategic plan that works from that. And so we’re also like a critical friend. So helping the organization know that you said you wanted to be here. Let me ask you some questions about that. And again, holding that mirror up to say, this is what the, either the this is what the research is saying about what your positionality is, or this is what you said you wanted to do, but this is where you are and helping them see that.

Jen: And I also have kind of two lenses on it and I’m always so glad when Val and I get to work in a group together because it’s the meeting in the middle and then branching out from there. I spend a lot of my time focusing on onboarding faculty, staff, parents, trustees, students in why these conversations are different now. Particularly those of us who are white were raised with, don’t talk about it. If you talk about it, you’re going to mess it up, which then we don’t talk about it, which is an assertion of privilege in itself, but on the other hand, I know that a shamed brain doesn’t learn. So I spent a lot of time just trying to say, okay, this is what you thought before.

And you were not a bad person then. And here’s what we now know. And so let’s get you to be your best self. And so that’s the onboarding piece, but then I spent a lot of time on the structures. I’m really interested, as with Val, on the structures that are holding inequity in place. So like we’ve co presented with trustees. I do a lot of work around aligning your diversity goals in your hiring practices, your admissions practices, your communication methodology, your advisory. I’m a high school counselor still, and I’ve been a counselor for a long time. So one of my favorite hobbies, I need a better hobby, but is to write advisory lessons.

Most every school has an advisory and no one’s trained in how to do it. And it is the vehicle for getting this proactive support and skills into our kids and our teachers. So I spent a lot of time with schools, helping them redesign and redevelop their advisory programs so that equity, diversity, inclusion, justice, belonging, and access.

I haven’t thought about that Val, I always learn from Val, are in every one of the lessons. So it’s the proactive piece and onboarding and structures.

Aubrey: I’m still intrigued by this because when I work with schools, a lot of times, they’ll say that they’re doing something and yet they’re not actually doing it because they haven’t really thought of the different layers that you just talked about, Jen, that it’s throughout.

And that is just a very interesting way of looking at things. Do you find that most schools need to go through each of those layers like that? It’s not just when you both go into schools, it’s not just looking at one piece, it’s a holistic view, similar to how marketing is holistic and impacts the school.

But obviously Diversity, Equity, Inclusion is much more important, but like how, it’s not something that you can silo, right? It’s affecting every one of those aspects. 

Val: And so that’s why I think someone from the outside coming in, because it is very hard to see your own blindspots. It just is. And having someone come in and talk about those and what we do for in my firm is that we take a very research-based approach to it, that there are specific pieces of your organization that you need to look at, as Jen said, through an equity lens, and we need to measure that and talk about it.

So for instance, you say that all of your students are graduating with honors and doing great. Is that really so? What about your marginalized groups? Are all boys of color, actually graduating at the same rate. Are they finishing college at the same rate? The other really good one was, they’re all taking AP. Are they all? What about discipline? I’m finding in school after school that black girls tend to be more disciplined than any other group, but the administrators will tell you over and over again. Oh no, it’s all the same. Every time we go in, we find that we can document it and show them if they’re keeping track of their discipline policy or their reading slips or whatever thing they use.

We find it every single time. And when we do the focus groups, we do focus groups, interviews, surveys, all of that. We find every time that happens. And so how do you know that unless someone comes in and actually does the research for you and then teaches you how to do it yourself so that you can continue the process as you’re going forward.

Jen: And that’s the other piece too, is that we want to be looking at discipline. We want to be looking at those corrective conversations that happen in between which we, if we’re in our school, that’s very much a blind spot for us. And so we need somebody to come in from the outside.

And I actually think that, you were saying marketing isn’t as important as DEI. I think they’re very much strands that are braided together, because when schools are not telling an accurate story about who they are, real harm can happen to children and to families and to faculty and staff. And when schools are telling who they really are, great joy can happen.

And so it’s important that schools have people to come in and say, here’s your story. I know you think this is your story, but this is your story, and let’s tell it in a way that is really reflective and thoughtful and supportive. And I do think we need to be looking at every single area, Val mentioned policies and practices, when I’m doing a backward analysis with schools, I find, and over again, they’ve been doing good work and we saw a lot of that after last summer, when schools went out and made big bold statements were anti-

racist. And I was like, no, you’re not you aspire to be, but you’re not. So don’t say you are say, I want to be in this, what we’re going to do. But when we do a backward analysis, they’ve been doing a lot of great professional development for adults intervening with students, but not teaching the adults to look in themselves.

And also not looking at all the systems. So I spent a lot of time with the business offices in schools. And one of the things we find is they’re often invited to the PD, but it doesn’t translate to their work. And yet we have the development office is making the financial decisions, asking people for money and admissions is giving a entrance to the school and the business offices, financial aid, and these are all really important interactions with families that, that can really be supported and nurtured if we are really intentional and deliberative about it. 

Tara: My brain is still stuck back when you said a shamed brain doesn’t learn. I just find that very meaningful and I think it takes a lot of effort to not be defensive and not feel that shame when you realize you’ve been acting a certain way, or you have certain preconceived notions that are impacting your views. I’m inspired also by the concept of how this relates to a school and how it relates to your working with an administration to help them. While at the same time you have this generation of children who are hopefully growing up in a world where they don’t have those preconceived notions, the way that my generation did.

And so I wanted to share that because I think it’s must be something that you face as well, but also how that’s going to impact generations to come. So I think it’s amazing. How do schools approach you if a school wanted to make this step and take this effort?

What is the process like? How long does it take? What does it look like? 

Val: Maybe I’ll start with mine because mine’s a little more straightforward. So equity audits, typically your school will contact me through my website, drvalwise.com and then sign up to just have an exploratory conversation. talk about what’s the need for the school. What are their goals and aspirations? I love talking with boards of trustees to see where they are and what they’re thinking about this work. And then from the time we are engaged to the time we have an actual product for most schools is between four to six months. And that’s because doing focus groups, interviews, and all the gathering, all the data and for many schools, this is the first time they’ve ever looked at, for instance disaggregated data about their admissions process, or disaggregated data, meaning looking at the demographic data, that it has a part of their discipline policies or things like that.

And then once that’s done, we present to the community, various levels of the community, what we found and then what the strategic plan is going to be like going forward. And how do we know when we’ve gotten to where we were supposed to be getting what’s the measurable goals? 

Jen: So in my work, it’s usually people come in from the side of thinking about trustees or admissions or advisory programs, the structural pieces, and then they find out that I do other things or it’s a lot of the onboarding.

The best way to get in touch with me is just my website, jencort.com. And my goal is to listen to schools and to create programs and responses that fit their needs rather than it being about me. So, you know, that’s when I just did this a couple of weeks ago called Val, Val I’ve got a school district for you because you can do this side of things.

And I can’t do that side of things and working off each other. I think that’s a really important thing for schools to consider is that when you’re interviewing folks like us in our jobs, Please ask us what we can’t do and how will fill that gap with other people. And I wanted to just go back to something you said before, Tara, about administrators having one view in history and kids having another.

The one piece that’s really important for folks to know is that I’ve looked at over the last 100 years in this country and I won’t go through all of it. But over the first 80 years of that, a hundred year study, all the social identifiers, race, gender, sexual orientation, et cetera, had some movements forward, but they concentrated in time.

The last 20 years, every one of them have. So kids today have a fundamentally different relationship with language and understanding. Adults have experience without the language. And so we’re in this beautiful time right now, where we can learn from students and students can learn from us, but I’ll tell you over and over again, kids are shocked that adults don’t know.

So if we’re not talking about it and not telling them that we are learning too, then we are sending a message to them that we don’t care because we’re not talking with them about it. 

Tara: You’re making me cry a little bit right now.. 

Val: Sometimes it’s even worse than that because we may be sending inadvertently the message that not only don’t we care, but it is not something that we were ashamed of or we believe that it doesn’t exist.

So the conversation has to be had, and it has to be happy with boldness. And that is this a common part of what we talk about. And we’re not neither ashamed nor ignoring, but embracing. 

Aubrey: Thank you so much for sharing that as a mom of two kids. I think this is something that it’s at the forefront of my mind.

It always has been. I think we’re all as parents or educators, working with kids that’s something that we need to consider and reflect on and be very thoughtful of moving forward. Now we’re we could talk to you all day, of course, but we are at that point in time of our interview, where we asked our guests, all these set of questions, I think you’re really going to enjoy and we enjoy listening to you about, so the first one of those is what are the most important things you do to grow personally and professionally?

Val: Well, you know, I’m a powerlifter. I think that is one of the most important things I do. I deadlift recently my, my, my biggest one was 267, which is my dead lift, which I’m very excited about. So that’s my personal. And then my professional is I surround myself with people who are smarter than me.

So people like yourselves, who you teach me every day and help me understand the things that I don’t necessarily think in a way that’s unique. That’s how I grow. One of the things I always do with new groups that I talk to is I ask them to write down six people that they trust implicitly that are not their family members.

And I make sure for me that I’m looking at people who are diverse so that they are not like me. So that I can grow.

Jen: I always love when Val says she’s a powerlifter,, it inspires me so much. So personally I walk a lot and I run as much as I can. And when I’m really at my best, I’m doing those in the woods cause I’m from the woods I grew up in the woods and just I feel that’s my therapy. Professionally. in addition to always being in spaces with people who are smarter than me, I also always invite every group I’m working with to feel very comfortable telling me when I’ve said something that does not support them or causes them harm.

And I also tell them if you don’t feel comfortable telling me, you can tell, and then I name a couple of people. So that they can tell me. And I don’t depend on them to educate me, but creating that invitation supports me and supports them, hopefully, because often that’s something that people just have to take.

So that’s something that I try to do. And I learn a lot from it. 

Tara: That’s wonderful. Again, I feel like you’ve got to stuff that defensiveness down in your pocket, way down deep with you are willing to do that. And that’s a hard thing to do. So thanks for sharing that. The second question is what is the most important thing that you can do to be more mindful?

 

Jen: I think about this as a mom and as an educator that it’s not about me, parenting my children is not about me. It’s about them. Educating students and faculty and staff, it’s not about me, it’s about them. And so if I center myself on that, then I can diminish some of the defensiveness, not all the way because I’m human, but I can definitely diminish some of it.

And I find that I’m a better listener, when I just keep reminding myself, this is not your time. This is not about you. This is their time. And it’s about them. 

Val: I think this is piggybacking off of what Jen just said. Mine is that it’s better to give than to receive. And I think that’s an axiom that I have grown up with that is part of my daily life. It’s part of my spiritual life that this is, I’m supposed to do this. I’m supposed to give. And the more I give the better I feel. So I think that’s that it’s a purpose driven life that I would like to leave. 

Aubrey: Thank you so much for sharing. We’d like to end all our chats with some rapid fire questions.

I’m going to kick us off with, if you could put one book as mandatory reading in this school curriculum, what would it be? 

 Val: The Sum of Us by Heather McGee. 

Jen: Oh, yeah, I’m reading that right now for my book club. Mine would be What If I say the Wrong Thing, 25 Habits for Culturally Effective People by Renee Myers. I think every human should read that over and over again, to dispel the idea that being afraid of making mistakes is a reason to not engage. 

Tara: I love that. I’m definitely gonna look that one up. That sounds like a perfect put for me. Okay. Next question is what is one app you could not live without? 

Val: Asana. Without Asana, I would be a mess. It is my programming tool. It is, I wouldn’t be able to do anything without it.

Jen: Mine is iTunes. If I don’t have music to listen to, or podcasts to listen to I don’t know how I’ll get through the day. And I’m the person who, if you drive by and see me in the window, I’m rocking it out while I’m writing, because I’d have to have music.

Aubrey: That’s so cool. I can envision you doing that. 

Jen: It’s not pretty, but it happens a lot. 

Aubrey: I am curious though, you may have already mentioned this, but what are you all reading right now? 

Val: I’m reading this Disintegration by Eugene Robinson and I should have read it. It’s been on my list for a long time and I’m finally reading it 

Jen: I’m reading The Sum of Us. 

Tara: That was easy. Okay. The last question is what is one great piece of advice you’d like to leave us with?

Val: Embrace the Moment. I have three kids who are now all over 30 and I think I did, but I wish I had lived in the moment with them more because now they’re grown in one and I’m speaking my first grandchild. I’m going to take the time to live in the moment with that baby when she comes, because you can’t get it back.

Aubrey: I’m going to cry. I’m crying actually now.

Jen: I love that. Mine would be, be where you are is a Quaker saying that it’s embrace a moment, but also for listeners to ask children and listen to children more, my youngest colleagues are three. And three and a half, they will say are three and three quarters.

And we’ve actually designed workshops for parents and trustees on equity and privilege, kids get it, and we need to not wait and they anything good that I do in my job when people like that was brilliant. Almost every time it was co-constructed with students. 

Tara: It gives me great hope. It gives me great hope.

Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Oh my gosh. I could talk to you guys. I think we all could just keep talking. I learned so much every time I talk with you and really appreciate your joining us here today. I know you shared your emails, but where else can people find you online? 

Val: So for me, I’m only on a couple of places just because I can’t keep up, but Dr.valwise.com or my email address is a v.wise@drvalwise.com 

Jen: Mine is jencort.com. And my email’s really easy, jencort@jencort.com and I’m on all social media channels. 

Aubrey: This has been so amazing. Thank you for sharing. And like Tara said, I do learn something new every single time I chat with you.

Val: I feel the same way. It’s mutual. 

Tara: Thank you. Thanks for joining us.  

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